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archangels ghosts and Bigfoot oh my it's

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just another night for Supernatural

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girls real stories real answers to

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life's biggest supernatural mysteries

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and now for another exciting interview

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with paranormal experts in this world

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and here's your host paranormal

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[Music]

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welcome everyone to another exciting

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episode of Supernatural girls

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I'm your host Patricia Baker I'm here

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with my co-host all the way from sunny

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Tucson PK Patricia Kirkman how you doing

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tonight doing fine just looking outside

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waiting for the rains to start Wow great

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again guys oh yeah but I'm glad we've

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had the rain we just had a bit more

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abundance than I would have liked it oh

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my god my garage floor is about 1/4 inch

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deep in water but oh yeah so the little

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ow I go out there and play okay well

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that's good Lisa amis going to benefit

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from olive exactly well we've got sunny

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skies in New England gorgeous weather in

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the 70s today let's hope it stays with

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us it's been beautiful but we have a

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very exciting guest we're going to bring

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on a little while oh my god and what a

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great book he's written yes yes Marc

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O'Connell

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because powder and Merrill got it for a

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doubleheader Saint John well marks a

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fantastic writer we're going to

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introduce him shortly but oh wow what a

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book put a piece of history he's written

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and you guys you can't miss it you got

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to get this book it is tremendous but in

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the meantime you did a little bit of

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sleuthing I'm J Allen Hynek numerology I

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am China here this where I wanted you

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know what the inner workings of this man

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he was such a such a giant in this field

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who wasn't really party to the numbers

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anyway according to the numbers what

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does they say he wanted to be seen as

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the best of the best

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he fought himself maybe a little bit

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more like Donald but without going into

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that type of an element but I said you I

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didn't see his size or stature but I

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said he gave the impression of

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everything I'm picking up as a very of

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us of a shorter man mark and I correct

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about that yes you are okay because that

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long add up a little Napoleonic type

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come on but I don't think I am he lives

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in his head

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meant a tremendous amount at the time he

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was always concerned about what was

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Justin fair like things done but his way

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he had that I need to be in charge or

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control I picked up also that he had

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major issues with the father figure as

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he was growing up issues about that so

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there would be issues with him dealing

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with men in this lifetime because of the

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father element that's interesting

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because he was surrounded by men and

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everything he did right there were very

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few women astronomers but unlikely

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investors at that time he liked women

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but he had a destiny that job made him

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want to be in control or to control

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things and this is very good but his key

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to success came out of what he did

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himself he had to go through a lot of

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hurdles to be known or well known in his

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own right he had to be the champion

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think of him somewhat of a Napoleonic

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type he didn't care whatever they told

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me was going to go and go for it anyway

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but one of the things that showed here

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when he was having the different times

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that he was getting involved with the

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project grudge he was in a too personal

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year there so it was very important that

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he became a team player in a partner

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then when he went to there's a blue book

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I think is what it does like I can't

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read my own writing but he was in a

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5-year there was major changes that came

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out of that which enhanced many of the

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things that he did thereafter he when I

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would through this he's outgoing he'd

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and you know so he he knew who he was

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but he did it creatively

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and he gave in his personal stuff very

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low-key on that good communicator but he

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had his ideas of what perfection was

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supposed to be but he liked to take

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shortcuts that's what I was surprised at

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because first of them that knew the

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things that he did and could work what

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he did he take take shortcuts that only

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involve what he himself felt come

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but with love changes and his idea of

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how to put things together he was

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looking for this perfection good head on

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his shoulders very competent but the two

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areas that he dealt with karma one dealt

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with the details the other dealt with

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the world at large yet those are the

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very two things that he pulled together

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to be who he ended up being and I

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noticed the one thing the date that he

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passed he was in a seven personal month

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and he passed on a seven personal date

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seven is the highest of the spiritual

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numbers so during that period of time

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prior to his passing I think there were

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a few things that could have made a

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change but I think he allowed himself to

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let go so that in kind of thing but I

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thought that great peace day thank you

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so much for taking a look at that

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because they see is stellar in his field

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me he was amazing but yet who knew him

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really personally and so it's nice to be

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able for you to take a look internally

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and see the numbers tell the truth so

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and he said he skipped a lot of details

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that was another thing we were talking

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about that he wasn't detail-oriented it

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out what she was surprising he liked to

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do it his way

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he didn't go by what he considered the

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details of what others saw and in fact

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actually the first project side that he

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was involved in that was in 1890 so it

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was about the world at large and that's

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where he actually started really pushing

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even more towards what he ended up doing

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in the end tremendous well why thank you

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nice and stuff we always go a little

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deeper on Supernatural girls so yes and

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thank you PK for that okay that's great

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and then for our paranormal news segment

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what we did was we posted the Montana

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UFO sighting from 1952 which was amazing

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and something that was never debunked

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and was thought to be a true UFO

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sighting you will find that on our

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Facebook page so make sure you guys go

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look at it

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it is amazing footage I know from our

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it's one of his favorite cases he'd like

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to be able to take a look at more deeply

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we would like that to happen also but

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for all of you right now you can just go

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to the super Nashville girls Facebook

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page and look at that footage and a very

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brief interview with a gentleman mr.

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Newhouse who took that footage it was

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his wife who first spotted the UFOs in

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the skies and then he pulled over told

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his camera out of the trunk of his car

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and did his stuff and here we are today

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talking about it still and we're going

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to hear more about that in a few minutes

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but also we have more Mothman sightings

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that is still happening and we posted

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about that on our Facebook page there is

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a new chronology you can take a look at

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it has not stopped we still want to know

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why is Chicago the focus of all the

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Mothman sightings some people think it's

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some type of a publicity stunt for an

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upcoming film I don't think so I think

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this is a real deal we just don't know

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why Mothman is there yet but maybe we'll

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find out soon it's a it's a very

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interesting cryptid blossom is you know

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the long history so take a look there

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make sure you give us a like and follow

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us and also a couple of announcements

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esra from the high-end dot-org he's

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running a big sale 20% off all of his

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CBD oil products so take a look you can

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save a little money and go visit him at

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the high-end org and also we have Tom

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Palladino scale our energy treatments at

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creative strength dot us go there you

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will get 15 days of free scale our

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treatment you don't have to give a

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credit card you don't have to do

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anything except send him your photograph

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you will get a free 15 day scale our

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treatment very cool stuff don't move the

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night great right just what you have to

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lose

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let's go not a thing except some pain

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yeah get rid of that pain you don't want

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to see you in pain anything any of you

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so tonight we're blessed because we have

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mark O'Connell who is the author of this

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tremendous book the Close Encounters man

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how one man

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and made the world believe in UFOs so

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let me say a little bit about mark he's

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a serious writer he is a screenwriter

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teacher and blogger

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he wrote episodes for Star Trek yes from

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our favorite shows the next generation

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and Star Trek Deep Space nine he's

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developed feature film projects as major

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studios including Walt Disney and

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DreamWorks Animation and he is also the

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founder of the UFO blog where you can

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read his writings now in in our time

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high strangeness is the name of it he

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lives in Wisconsin with his wife Monica

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and teaches screenwriting at DePaul

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University in Chicago mark welcome to

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the show thanks it's great to be here

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hey it's terrific to have you tremendous

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book he said fifty-five years of your

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life to write this pretty much yeah if

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you add up all the research years it's

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yeah it was it was a big chunk of my

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life

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Wow well it is it is a great great book

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and it just it really it's so well

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written I mean we were just pulled into

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the life of J Allen Hynek and you know

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she K and I read a lot of books we have

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two for the show we love to read but

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your book is tremendous really so much

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very good indeed it's great so tell us I

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know you told the story before but our

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audience needs to hear it directly from

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you what brought you to J Allen Hynek

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store what was it if it was it was a

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long long route it got me to chill at

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night next door yeah I mean I I've been

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fascinated by UFOs and aliens and outer

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space since I was a tiny kid my first

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conscious memory was when I was about

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three and a half years old

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that a new a new scary science fiction

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show was on TV called the Outer Limits

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and there's some room for some strange

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reason my mom tuned in the pilot episode

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of the other

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it's and when the and there was always a

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scary monster in every episode of that

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show so in the premiere episode this

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glowing alien appears scared me to death

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and I remember running ups running

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upstairs and hiding around the corner oh

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I'm telling my mom I wouldn't come back

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downstairs until that scary monster was

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gone

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so that that kind of set the tone for my

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life I've been fascinating in those

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fascinated in those things ever since

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then and and I kind of kind of got away

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from all that I was just I was obsessed

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with UFOs and the paranormal

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you know in my teens and in my 20s kind

270
00:12:57,729 --> 00:12:55,369
of fell away from it you know had kids

271
00:13:00,489 --> 00:12:57,739
right the family did more serious stuff

272
00:13:02,139 --> 00:13:00,499
but but just in the last few years kind

273
00:13:04,059 --> 00:13:02,149
of got interested in it again and

274
00:13:08,499 --> 00:13:04,069
started writing my blog high strangeness

275
00:13:09,579 --> 00:13:08,509
and you know when you write a blog I'm

276
00:13:11,619 --> 00:13:09,589
sure it's the same as doing a podcast

277
00:13:15,729 --> 00:13:11,629
you have this constant need for new

278
00:13:18,429 --> 00:13:15,739
material so now I was soon yes so I was

279
00:13:21,819 --> 00:13:18,439
always online looking for new

280
00:13:24,099 --> 00:13:21,829
interesting things going on in the in

281
00:13:28,599 --> 00:13:24,109
UFO world to write about and I came

282
00:13:31,629 --> 00:13:28,609
across the website for Jael and I Nick's

283
00:13:34,869 --> 00:13:31,639
Center for UFO studies in Chicago well I

284
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:34,879
was living in Chicago part-time at the

285
00:13:40,689 --> 00:13:38,959
time this is like 2011 and could not

286
00:13:42,519 --> 00:13:40,699
believe my luck that I had found this

287
00:13:44,739 --> 00:13:42,529
UFO research center just a couple of

288
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:44,749
miles from where I lived so I got in

289
00:13:49,239 --> 00:13:46,910
touch and Marcotte Iger who's the

290
00:13:50,829 --> 00:13:49,249
scientific director at Koufos now he

291
00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:50,839
invited me to come over it turns out all

292
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:54,169
that's left of Koufos today is a bunch

293
00:14:00,789 --> 00:13:55,850
of files in a couple people's basements

294
00:14:03,309 --> 00:14:00,799
in Chicago how sad it is it is so I went

295
00:14:06,579 --> 00:14:03,319
to so I went to mark Rogers house and he

296
00:14:07,899 --> 00:14:06,589
gave me you know free rein and I started

297
00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:07,909
visiting there every couple of months

298
00:14:12,849 --> 00:14:10,220
just to poke around in their files they

299
00:14:15,129 --> 00:14:12,859
had so much interesting stuff and I got

300
00:14:16,929 --> 00:14:15,139
I was sort of reintroduced to J Allen

301
00:14:19,479 --> 00:14:16,939
Hynek while I dug through those files

302
00:14:23,579 --> 00:14:19,489
well on one of those visits mark just

303
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:23,589
kind of casually mentioned oh by the way

304
00:14:29,980 --> 00:14:25,730
we've always wanted to find

305
00:14:33,460 --> 00:14:29,990
writer to do the definitive telling of

306
00:14:36,970 --> 00:14:33,470
dr. Hanna's career and I said hey let me

307
00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:36,980
I want to do it please pick me so he

308
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:39,230
said sure here you go you have access to

309
00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:42,050
our files go for it and that's that's

310
00:14:45,310 --> 00:14:43,790
kind of how it all happened I was I was

311
00:14:48,129 --> 00:14:45,320
kind of in the right place at the right

312
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:48,139
time or as Hynek like to say dynamic

313
00:14:51,699 --> 00:14:49,490
like to call himself an innocent

314
00:14:53,730 --> 00:14:51,709
bystander where UFOs were concerned I

315
00:14:58,569 --> 00:14:53,740
guess that applies to me as well oh

316
00:15:00,460 --> 00:14:58,579
that's great that's great now you've

317
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:00,470
done a just an incredible job as I

318
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:03,050
mentioned with this book but what was

319
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:05,570
the most surprising thing about the

320
00:15:11,439 --> 00:15:08,959
research that you delved into just to to

321
00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:11,449
report all of this about jail and having

322
00:15:17,439 --> 00:15:13,519
what surprised you the most about him

323
00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:17,449
and his journey I I think it has to be

324
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:20,750
the this dichotomy between his

325
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:24,170
scientific endeavors and his pursuit of

326
00:15:30,939 --> 00:15:29,510
of these mysteries in the world that was

327
00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:30,949
that was something I wasn't really

328
00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:32,720
expecting it wasn't really prepared for

329
00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:34,160
and I didn't really start to learn about

330
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:36,260
it in until I started digging through

331
00:15:41,439 --> 00:15:39,410
the files across town at Northwestern

332
00:15:44,379 --> 00:15:41,449
University in Evanston where dr. Hynek

333
00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:44,389
taught for 25 years so when I started so

334
00:15:50,769 --> 00:15:46,420
here I'm digging through all of his UFO

335
00:15:53,050 --> 00:15:50,779
archives at in mark rodiger's basement

336
00:15:56,170 --> 00:15:53,060
and then across town I'm digging into

337
00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:56,180
his professional files as a professional

338
00:16:01,689 --> 00:15:58,970
astronomer and academic educator at

339
00:16:05,710 --> 00:16:01,699
Northwestern and I started to learn how

340
00:16:07,780 --> 00:16:05,720
he juggled these two careers and how the

341
00:16:09,340 --> 00:16:07,790
how the triggers really kind of informed

342
00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:09,350
each other over time and I'd say that

343
00:16:14,050 --> 00:16:11,569
was the biggest surprise was that his

344
00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:14,060
well you know these things that I

345
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:15,110
thought he would have kept you know

346
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:18,260
completely separate in his life not at

347
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:18,620
all

348
00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:20,930
they were very much they were very much

349
00:16:25,569 --> 00:16:23,120
intertwined in everything he did

350
00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:25,579
throughout his career and that I found I

351
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:27,529
found really fascinating and I was so

352
00:16:32,290 --> 00:16:30,560
impressed by dr. hynek's accomplishments

353
00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:32,300
as an astronomer things that I had never

354
00:16:35,470 --> 00:16:33,529
ever realized

355
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:35,480
he was a pioneer in the field of

356
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:37,610
celestial imaging he literally paved the

357
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:40,160
way for the Hubble Space Telescope

358
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:42,530
he identified a record number of

359
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:47,610
supernovae Wow yeah he had a huge huge

360
00:16:52,070 --> 00:16:49,890
list of accomplishments as an astronomer

361
00:16:54,430 --> 00:16:52,080
that I had never heard of before and

362
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:54,440
another part of that surprising

363
00:17:00,920 --> 00:16:56,730
discovery of his life was the fact that

364
00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:00,930
he had such a deep spiritual side I

365
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:02,400
don't know if that's how he would have

366
00:17:07,370 --> 00:17:05,370
described it because he was his son Paul

367
00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:07,380
told me he was not religious at all they

368
00:17:12,679 --> 00:17:10,589
were not a religious family but his dad

369
00:17:14,510 --> 00:17:12,689
was really fascinating going back to his

370
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:14,520
youth back to his high school years his

371
00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:17,810
dad was fascinated by the Rosicrucians

372
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:22,110
the teachings of Rudolf Steiner I really

373
00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:23,850
yeah he really really got into that

374
00:17:29,930 --> 00:17:26,550
stuff in his early years and then and

375
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:29,940
then when when it came to his end of

376
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:34,410
life in his last year when he was dying

377
00:17:39,260 --> 00:17:37,170
a brain cancer then he sort of came full

378
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:39,270
circle and started to immerse himself in

379
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:42,930
those spiritual the spiritual themes

380
00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:44,940
once again so those were the big

381
00:17:48,530 --> 00:17:46,920
surprises for me and you know they

382
00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:48,540
really fleshed him out as a person all

383
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:51,480
of a sudden he's this really fascinating

384
00:17:56,630 --> 00:17:54,210
3-dimensional person with you know

385
00:17:59,210 --> 00:17:56,640
conflicting beliefs sometimes in

386
00:18:01,340 --> 00:17:59,220
conflicting motivations and you know he

387
00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:01,350
was a he was a complicated guy PK I

388
00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:02,550
thought it was really interesting in

389
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:05,580
your numerology reading how you talked

390
00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:08,450
about how he he took shortcuts sometimes

391
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:10,710
the first thing I thought of when you

392
00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:13,170
said that was the infamous swamp gas

393
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:15,900
case which which I'm pretty sure we'll

394
00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:20,400
talk about tonight yeah yeah when Hynek

395
00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:22,590
said swamp gas at best that press

396
00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:25,160
conference to explain new sightings I

397
00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:28,830
think you could say that he was he was

398
00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:31,080
kind of taking a shortcut there I do

399
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:33,240
believe I honestly believe that he said

400
00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:37,020
the right thing um yeah and I go into a

401
00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:39,150
lot of detail in that book that story is

402
00:18:42,170 --> 00:18:40,950
so complicated that it actually took two

403
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:42,180
chapters for me to tell the story

404
00:18:46,820 --> 00:18:44,490
adequately and I still had to leave some

405
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:46,830
things out but I thought it was

406
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:47,970
interesting when you said that though

407
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:49,050
because I thought there really does

408
00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:52,330
apply to that of that absolutely to that

409
00:18:59,030 --> 00:18:55,480
particular case he lived in his head a

410
00:19:01,560 --> 00:18:59,040
tremendous amount of time people he was

411
00:19:04,530 --> 00:19:01,570
multi-dimensional yet he closed down

412
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:04,540
those doors as he it's kind of locking

413
00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:06,010
down Hall when he kept closing the door

414
00:19:11,010 --> 00:19:07,900
right behind him it was until he came

415
00:19:12,090 --> 00:19:11,020
back you could pick it up again yeah I

416
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,100
thought that was a really interesting

417
00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:14,160
insight I mean he was a fantastic

418
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:16,720
communicator yes he did live inside his

419
00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:20,470
head a lot and he and he wasn't always

420
00:19:26,190 --> 00:19:23,350
the most communicative person but when

421
00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:26,200
he needed to hear you know he could be a

422
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:28,660
really fantastic persuasive writer and

423
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:34,810
speaker hmm very interesting well yes

424
00:19:40,590 --> 00:19:36,370
but if you want to talk about this

425
00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:40,600
Montez case yes you've got a bones of

426
00:19:47,340 --> 00:19:45,580
that one you know it's funny a lot of

427
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:47,350
people when I when I do interviews and

428
00:19:50,610 --> 00:19:48,730
things a lot of people one of the first

429
00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:50,620
things the last me is what was the

430
00:19:56,010 --> 00:19:53,020
moment at which dr. Hynek changed his

431
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:56,020
mind about UFOs you know because I think

432
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:57,850
that's probably the thing that most

433
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:01,600
people know of when they if they know if

434
00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:03,520
they know much at all about dr. Hynek

435
00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:05,260
they know that they're you know he had

436
00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:06,580
this really interesting career

437
00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:08,590
trajectory where he started out

438
00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:10,750
debunking UFO reports for the Air Force

439
00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:14,680
and then over time became what people

440
00:20:18,450 --> 00:20:16,630
sometimes say is a true believer that's

441
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:18,460
probably not the most accurate term but

442
00:20:22,770 --> 00:20:20,770
he became open-minded about the UFO

443
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:22,780
phenomenon and really felt that it

444
00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:25,840
deserved some serious study so the swamp

445
00:20:30,780 --> 00:20:28,750
gas case sort of fits into that whole

446
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:30,790
trajectory because it was the moment at

447
00:20:37,140 --> 00:20:33,730
which he kind of completed his turnabout

448
00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:37,150
on how he felt about the UFO phenomenon

449
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:42,670
so March 1966 the American public

450
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:45,520
already has UFO fever because this

451
00:20:51,450 --> 00:20:48,240
best-selling book incident and Exeter

452
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:51,460
was being was being excerpted in popular

453
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:53,530
magazines people were very excited about

454
00:20:58,110 --> 00:20:55,690
UFOs and they were the American public

455
00:21:01,740 --> 00:20:58,120
was really ready for a huge UFO event

456
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:01,750
and so in March of 66 in southeastern

457
00:21:05,789 --> 00:21:03,610
Michigan there was just this whole

458
00:21:07,529 --> 00:21:05,799
series of UFO sightings

459
00:21:09,389 --> 00:21:07,539
you really took place over a couple of

460
00:21:12,149 --> 00:21:09,399
weeks and it involved law enforcement

461
00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:12,159
officers chasing UFOs at night in their

462
00:21:15,930 --> 00:21:15,070
squad cars and then it kind of reached

463
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:15,940
its peak

464
00:21:23,729 --> 00:21:22,480
one night when some UFOs appeared in the

465
00:21:26,430 --> 00:21:23,739
swampland

466
00:21:28,769 --> 00:21:26,440
next to a farmhouse and the family

467
00:21:30,779 --> 00:21:28,779
living in this farmhouse they see these

468
00:21:35,279 --> 00:21:30,789
lights floating around down near the

469
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:35,289
marsh and they go tracking them and the

470
00:21:39,060 --> 00:21:37,210
family calls in the police so all the

471
00:21:40,919 --> 00:21:39,070
police they're already into it because

472
00:21:43,889 --> 00:21:40,929
they've all been seeing UFOs for the

473
00:21:45,629 --> 00:21:43,899
previous week so they're all excited

474
00:21:47,249 --> 00:21:45,639
they show up at the farm and everybody

475
00:21:49,349 --> 00:21:47,259
and everybody's seeing it everybody's

476
00:21:50,849 --> 00:21:49,359
seeing these glowing lights and they're

477
00:21:53,039 --> 00:21:50,859
bobbing up and down and they're moving

478
00:21:55,169 --> 00:21:53,049
around they'll disappear from one spot

479
00:21:57,479 --> 00:21:55,179
and then instantly reappear in another

480
00:22:01,549 --> 00:21:57,489
spot and then the next night it all

481
00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:01,559
happens again at a college in Hillsdale

482
00:22:07,619 --> 00:22:05,320
where 87 young women living in a

483
00:22:10,259 --> 00:22:07,629
dormitory overlooking the campus

484
00:22:12,869 --> 00:22:10,269
Arboretum all see the exact same thing

485
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:12,879
they see these same glowing lights that

486
00:22:16,229 --> 00:22:14,559
are floating up and down and moving

487
00:22:19,259 --> 00:22:16,239
around and disappearing and reappearing

488
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:19,269
and these UFO sightings just make

489
00:22:25,710 --> 00:22:22,090
national headlines it's a huge hugely

490
00:22:27,299 --> 00:22:25,720
popular story and so the Air Force has

491
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:27,309
no choice but to send heineken to

492
00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:29,200
investigate because really they just

493
00:22:34,590 --> 00:22:32,289
want to squash this story if I work

494
00:22:36,629 --> 00:22:34,600
every time there was an unexplained UFO

495
00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:36,639
incident it was an embarrassment to the

496
00:22:40,379 --> 00:22:38,769
Air Force because they're supposed to be

497
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:40,389
able to explain these things and they

498
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:43,090
couldn't right so they send Hynek in and

499
00:22:47,389 --> 00:22:45,129
by the time Hynek gets there it's just a

500
00:22:49,710 --> 00:22:47,399
complete carnival it's a media circus

501
00:22:52,590 --> 00:22:49,720
there are reporters from all over the

502
00:22:55,409 --> 00:22:52,600
country hounding this farm family and

503
00:22:57,210 --> 00:22:55,419
the college students and Hynek shows up

504
00:23:00,210 --> 00:22:57,220
and he's trying his best to make sense

505
00:23:03,239 --> 00:23:00,220
of what's going on and and he quickly

506
00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:03,249
starts to realize that even though

507
00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:06,220
there's sort of a general agreement

508
00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:08,080
among all the witnesses about the lights

509
00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:10,809
they saw there's not a whole lot of

510
00:23:16,919 --> 00:23:15,070
agreement between any of them about what

511
00:23:18,869 --> 00:23:16,929
exactly they were looking at about

512
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:18,879
whether it had a solid form or a shape

513
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:20,050
or

514
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:22,090
whether it actually flew in from a

515
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:24,310
distance and appeared in this and landed

516
00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:26,050
in the swamp or if it just appeared

517
00:23:33,060 --> 00:23:29,500
there spontaneously so over three days

518
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:33,070
of interviewing over gosh I can't even

519
00:23:36,810 --> 00:23:34,960
remember the total amount but he

520
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:36,820
interviewed a whole lot of people in

521
00:23:41,730 --> 00:23:40,000
Michigan over three days and he made

522
00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:41,740
this very fateful decision he said you

523
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:44,200
know what I'm only going to stick with

524
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:46,930
the facts that two or more people can

525
00:23:51,090 --> 00:23:49,600
agree on if only one person says they

526
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:51,100
saw it I'm just going to leave that out

527
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:53,290
of my investigation so that was a pretty

528
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:56,050
fateful decision and then when he goes

529
00:24:01,470 --> 00:23:58,570
to the college to interview these 87

530
00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:01,480
students who saw these lights in the

531
00:24:07,290 --> 00:24:04,990
Arboretum well shocker the dorm house

532
00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:07,300
mother says you know what I'm very

533
00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:09,280
protective of these girls I'm only going

534
00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:11,470
to let you talk to two of them so

535
00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:14,260
instead of talking to 87 witnesses he

536
00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:16,740
only gets to talk to two witnesses and

537
00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:19,540
while he's at the campus interviewing

538
00:24:22,590 --> 00:24:21,220
interviewing these young women he also

539
00:24:25,260 --> 00:24:22,600
meets with the County civil defense

540
00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:25,270
agent who was there the night of the

541
00:24:29,610 --> 00:24:27,460
sightings and the County civil defense

542
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:29,620
agent says you know what when I first

543
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:31,810
saw those lights in the swamp I thought

544
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:34,810
it was swamp gas so right off the bat

545
00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:37,570
someone has planted this idea in hynek's

546
00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:40,360
head that it might have been might have

547
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:42,700
been swamp gas and over the course of

548
00:24:46,140 --> 00:24:44,290
the following three days and then

549
00:24:47,910 --> 00:24:46,150
fortunately this is a this was a part of

550
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:47,920
the story that was it was too lengthy to

551
00:24:53,460 --> 00:24:50,530
fit in the book so we so we had to edit

552
00:24:57,270 --> 00:24:53,470
it but over the course of three days no

553
00:24:59,310 --> 00:24:57,280
less than six different people suggest

554
00:25:02,220 --> 00:24:59,320
to Hynek that it might have been swamp

555
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:02,230
gas it sounds like swamp gas so in the

556
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:04,930
air force forces Hynek three days later

557
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:07,150
to hold a press conference in Detroit

558
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:09,850
and explain to the world what these

559
00:25:16,530 --> 00:25:13,510
people saw in Michigan he is up to the

560
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:16,540
microphone and he says he words it very

561
00:25:21,230 --> 00:25:20,050
carefully he says I can't prove it in a

562
00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:21,240
court of law

563
00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:23,590
but everything these witnesses have

564
00:25:31,620 --> 00:25:28,750
described sounds like swamp gas okay so

565
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:31,630
he so he didn't absolutely say yes they

566
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:33,490
saw swamp gas and I could prove it

567
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:35,890
you know it's very careful in the way he

568
00:25:39,930 --> 00:25:37,450
worded it but that didn't matter

569
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:39,940
everybody thought that he was saying

570
00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:43,090
swamp gas is the explanation and that's

571
00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:45,640
what snuck all these reporters ranted

572
00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:47,950
their telephones and they didn't listen

573
00:25:51,090 --> 00:25:49,630
to another word Hynek had to say because

574
00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:51,100
he had already said what they wanted to

575
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:53,140
hear and Hynek beat it out of town

576
00:25:58,799 --> 00:25:55,530
because everybody was furious with him

577
00:26:01,080 --> 00:25:58,809
because you know everybody in the state

578
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:01,090
of michigan thought that the the air

579
00:26:07,020 --> 00:26:04,270
force's top UFO expert had just called

580
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:07,030
them all a bunch of gooks and they were

581
00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:10,510
and they were furiously Hynek yeah and

582
00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:13,150
but the thing is as you know as

583
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:15,670
fantastic as the case was and as is and

584
00:26:19,740 --> 00:26:17,410
it's really it's one of the most

585
00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:19,750
thoroughly documented UFO cases in

586
00:26:25,470 --> 00:26:22,390
history just simply because emotions

587
00:26:27,030 --> 00:26:25,480
were so running so high but I really

588
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:27,040
truly believe and this doesn't MIT this

589
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:30,809
makes a lot of UFO enthusiasts

590
00:26:35,370 --> 00:26:33,850
disappointed or angry with me but I

591
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:35,380
truly believe that Hynek said the right

592
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:36,970
thing at that press conference he

593
00:26:40,770 --> 00:26:38,650
couldn't prove it in a court of law but

594
00:26:42,210 --> 00:26:40,780
there was a very strong chance that they

595
00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:42,220
were actually looking at swamp gas

596
00:26:47,010 --> 00:26:44,590
because that's what swamp gas does it

597
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:47,020
forms sort of a glowing bubble that

598
00:26:51,630 --> 00:26:49,600
floats in the air and it moves up and

599
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:51,640
down and it moves from side to side and

600
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:53,530
sometimes it proofs out of existence and

601
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:55,090
it reappears on the other side of the

602
00:27:00,049 --> 00:26:57,490
swamp so I think Hynek was right in

603
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:00,059
saying that's what this could have been

604
00:27:05,580 --> 00:27:02,770
right it's just that he also didn't say

605
00:27:11,180 --> 00:27:05,590
or it could be this you're right you're

606
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:11,190
right you're right he was out of town I

607
00:27:19,380 --> 00:27:14,080
mean he was such a debbie downer with

608
00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:19,390
that you know was I he was wicked give

609
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:21,670
us anything more than swamp gas

610
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:24,250
my gosh what's that but yeah but here's

611
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:25,600
that here's the really interesting thing

612
00:27:32,010 --> 00:27:27,520
about that about the case though is that

613
00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:32,020
um so after he after he became public

614
00:27:37,530 --> 00:27:32,950
enemy number one

615
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:37,540
by saying swamp gas teeth he goes I mean

616
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:39,250
you know really he was hated everybody

617
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:41,290
hated him everybody was furious with him

618
00:27:45,540 --> 00:27:43,630
including all his buddies back in

619
00:27:46,050 --> 00:27:45,550
Illinois his his colleague Jacques valet

620
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:46,060
was

621
00:27:54,450 --> 00:27:52,720
swamp gas really oh yeah but but the

622
00:27:56,430 --> 00:27:54,460
interesting thing is and I discovered

623
00:27:58,430 --> 00:27:56,440
this going through these these these

624
00:28:00,780 --> 00:27:58,440
archives in at Northwestern University

625
00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:00,790
you go through his correspondence files

626
00:28:09,870 --> 00:28:06,780
and after the swamp gas incident he gets

627
00:28:12,330 --> 00:28:09,880
dozens and dozens and maybe hundreds of

628
00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:12,340
letters from people all over the world

629
00:28:18,270 --> 00:28:15,670
all of a sudden he is a legitimate UFO

630
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:18,280
superstar because of the swamp gas

631
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:21,850
incident of all things this this event

632
00:28:27,270 --> 00:28:24,370
made him so unpopular suddenly like

633
00:28:28,770 --> 00:28:27,280
ricochets and he's becoming incredibly

634
00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:28,780
popular he's getting speaking

635
00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:31,270
engagements his files are full of

636
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:33,220
letters from fans all over the world who

637
00:28:38,580 --> 00:28:34,630
were saying please tell me more about

638
00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:38,590
UFOs or in many cases the letters are

639
00:28:42,270 --> 00:28:40,420
saying I would like to tell you about my

640
00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:42,280
UFO experience and then they'll go on

641
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:44,080
for ten or twenty pages explaining this

642
00:28:48,330 --> 00:28:46,510
UFO experience they have so that's the

643
00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:48,340
weird thing about the swamp cast case in

644
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:50,830
Michigan that case turned Hynek into the

645
00:28:57,300 --> 00:28:54,450
most popular UFO figure of all time

646
00:28:59,970 --> 00:28:57,310
everybody wanting to have Ellen I'm it

647
00:29:02,040 --> 00:28:59,980
yeah I still can't figure it out yes the

648
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,050
very ones that response you would expect

649
00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:04,720
it is exact opposite and must have been

650
00:29:09,150 --> 00:29:07,030
something to do pique with his personal

651
00:29:10,890 --> 00:29:09,160
year and whatever was going on with that

652
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:10,900
at the time let's to take a look at that

653
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:13,090
maybe I don't rate I think one of the

654
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:14,650
things if you think about it the more we

655
00:29:20,220 --> 00:29:18,490
say it doesn't exist or play it down the

656
00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:20,230
more people want to believe that ah hi

657
00:29:25,380 --> 00:29:22,240
you're hiding something mmhmm yeah

658
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:25,390
that's a real yes and that's one of the

659
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:29,410
questions you know I certainly I've I've

660
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:32,170
known of Hynix some of my friends knew

661
00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:35,890
him and it's I always wondered was he a

662
00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:37,870
guy with a white hat or a black hat or

663
00:29:43,350 --> 00:29:41,740
something in between you know and so but

664
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:43,360
your book really put a lot of things

665
00:29:48,420 --> 00:29:46,930
into perspective for this so we're going

666
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:48,430
to get the other thing about your book

667
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:50,170
that we love so much is all the

668
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:53,110
wonderful cases that you talk about and

669
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:54,970
we want to get to more of those because

670
00:29:59,700 --> 00:29:57,370
you've got some great cases in there

671
00:30:01,980 --> 00:29:59,710
that we have to get to to

672
00:30:05,010 --> 00:30:01,990
I know our listeners are dying to hear

673
00:30:06,210 --> 00:30:05,020
about all of them and hey guys you're

674
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:06,220
just going to have to get the book if

675
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:07,450
you want to read them all but they're

676
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:11,200
all terrific which is Oh again we are

677
00:30:15,139 --> 00:30:13,120
speaking tonight with Mark O'Connell he

678
00:30:18,750 --> 00:30:15,149
is the author of the Close Encounters

679
00:30:21,779 --> 00:30:18,760
man how one man made the world believe

680
00:30:23,820 --> 00:30:21,789
in UFOs you're listening to Supernatural

681
00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:23,830
girls radio we're going to take a short

682
00:30:28,019 --> 00:30:25,990
break we'll be right back the

683
00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:28,029
supernatural girls radio I'm your host

684
00:30:35,490 --> 00:30:31,230
Patricia Baker I'm here with my co-host

685
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:35,500
numerologist PK and our incredible guest

686
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:37,690
tonight Mark O'Connell he is the author

687
00:30:43,019 --> 00:30:39,730
of a terrific book the Close Encounters

688
00:30:44,639 --> 00:30:43,029
man we've got a couple of questions for

689
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:44,649
you mark from the chat room so I'm just

690
00:30:48,570 --> 00:30:46,330
going to go through those before we get

691
00:30:51,149 --> 00:30:48,580
on to some of those fabulous UFO cases

692
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:51,159
that you've written about this one is

693
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:54,610
from hynek's fan and he says hello what

694
00:31:00,600 --> 00:30:57,490
did the faculty at the University he

695
00:31:04,919 --> 00:31:00,610
worked at think about his interest in

696
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:04,929
UFOs ah that's a great question hi

697
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:06,610
McKenna kind of had a very complicated

698
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:10,000
relationship with the people he worked

699
00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:12,250
with at Northwestern you know he spent

700
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:14,200
like the first half his career teaching

701
00:31:18,930 --> 00:31:16,720
at The Ohio State University on Ohio

702
00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:18,940
Wesleyan and that was kind of at the

703
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:20,860
beginning of his UFO career so there was

704
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:22,990
never much class there but when he

705
00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:25,360
taught at Northwestern from 1960 to

706
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:28,510
about 1984 there were there were some

707
00:31:35,250 --> 00:31:32,049
clashes the university the university

708
00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:35,260
was very happy to sort of bask in the

709
00:31:40,980 --> 00:31:38,230
glow of hynek's fame but at the same

710
00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:40,990
time they did not like it when anybody

711
00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:43,870
thought that the university was sort of

712
00:31:49,889 --> 00:31:46,630
sponsoring or even bankrolling hynek's

713
00:31:52,919 --> 00:31:49,899
UFO research they were very much against

714
00:31:54,659 --> 00:31:52,929
anyone thinking that so so northwestern

715
00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:54,669
was sort of keep Hynek at arm's length

716
00:31:59,279 --> 00:31:56,289
and then they would sort of hug him

717
00:32:01,620 --> 00:31:59,289
close when he got famous it was kind of

718
00:32:03,389 --> 00:32:01,630
interesting and as far as his colleagues

719
00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:03,399
as you know as far as his fellow

720
00:32:07,769 --> 00:32:05,919
professors he didn't he did mention at

721
00:32:10,110 --> 00:32:07,779
one point I have that quote in the book

722
00:32:12,850 --> 00:32:10,120
where he said that you know most most of

723
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:12,860
my colleagues think I'm a nut he was

724
00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:15,710
was very blunt about that but he August

725
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:18,440
surrounded himself at Northwestern he

726
00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:20,000
also surrounded himself with service

727
00:32:27,810 --> 00:32:23,150
core of you know loyal loyal colleague

728
00:32:30,460 --> 00:32:27,820
like dr. J fillet and like Bill powers

729
00:32:32,770 --> 00:32:30,470
who spent a lot of time with Hynek at

730
00:32:34,419 --> 00:32:32,780
the dear Bern observatory and they would

731
00:32:36,940 --> 00:32:34,429
you know when they were done with their

732
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:36,950
official work for Northwestern and they

733
00:32:41,770 --> 00:32:39,049
would you know sometimes put in a few

734
00:32:43,419 --> 00:32:41,780
hours looking at new UFO reports from

735
00:32:46,539 --> 00:32:43,429
Project Blue Book or just you know

736
00:32:48,909 --> 00:32:46,549
talking about UFOs in general and that

737
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:48,919
sort of formed the core of the famous

738
00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:51,200
invisible college that dr. belay wrote

739
00:32:56,620 --> 00:32:54,380
his book about so so yeah so my Nick so

740
00:33:00,370 --> 00:32:56,630
he you know he kind of had to be careful

741
00:33:02,530 --> 00:33:00,380
what he said or did in public for fear

742
00:33:04,450 --> 00:33:02,540
of you know getting the getting his

743
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:04,460
superiors at Northwestern upset with him

744
00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:07,370
but but sometimes you know sometimes he

745
00:33:15,460 --> 00:33:11,480
crossed that line anyway yeah you know

746
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:15,470
it's a it is a great question by heid

747
00:33:17,530 --> 00:33:17,210
expand because we have had people on the

748
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:17,540
show

749
00:33:24,159 --> 00:33:20,240
that have had their careers either

750
00:33:26,650 --> 00:33:24,169
interrupted or downgraded because they

751
00:33:29,409 --> 00:33:26,660
were involved in the UFO phenomenon so

752
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:29,419
some of them like Leo sprinkle could

753
00:33:35,140 --> 00:33:32,809
never get full professorship because of

754
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:35,150
their involvement they always remained

755
00:33:39,549 --> 00:33:36,770
associate professors and things like

756
00:33:41,169 --> 00:33:39,559
that which is a real shame so I'm glad

757
00:33:42,730 --> 00:33:41,179
that didn't happen to Hynek but it

758
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:42,740
sounds like he knew how to manage these

759
00:33:48,850 --> 00:33:46,240
people I think he really did he said

760
00:33:51,730 --> 00:33:48,860
here's another question for you this is

761
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:51,740
from starlight I'd like to know whether

762
00:33:56,890 --> 00:33:55,010
the resident in that town supported the

763
00:34:00,789 --> 00:33:56,900
family who was talking about the swamp

764
00:34:03,580 --> 00:34:00,799
gas story supported the family who

765
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:03,590
reported the swamp gas or if they didn't

766
00:34:08,830 --> 00:34:05,360
want the government attention in their

767
00:34:11,050 --> 00:34:08,840
town oh that's interesting

768
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:11,060
well I think it's I think it's probably

769
00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:13,040
safe to say that nobody really wanted

770
00:34:18,070 --> 00:34:16,399
all that government attention but you

771
00:34:19,690 --> 00:34:18,080
know it's a fine line because they were

772
00:34:21,550 --> 00:34:19,700
excited you know in the one hand they

773
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:21,560
were excited that the Air Force had

774
00:34:26,109 --> 00:34:24,770
Hynek to talk to them and to investigate

775
00:34:28,059 --> 00:34:26,119
their sightings

776
00:34:30,879 --> 00:34:28,069
because you know when the government

777
00:34:32,980 --> 00:34:30,889
sends their top UFO expert out to

778
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:32,990
investigate your sighting that kind of

779
00:34:36,849 --> 00:34:34,490
says something they're saying well we

780
00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:36,859
think something really significant may

781
00:34:41,769 --> 00:34:39,440
have happened here but at the same time

782
00:34:43,419 --> 00:34:41,779
then because because the way the

783
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:43,429
government approached these things was

784
00:34:50,049 --> 00:34:46,970
sometimes so clumsy and sometimes so

785
00:34:51,879 --> 00:34:50,059
even hypocritical that they would very

786
00:34:54,039 --> 00:34:51,889
often rub the witnesses the wrong way

787
00:34:56,889 --> 00:34:54,049
and make the witness's wish that the Air

788
00:34:58,529 --> 00:34:56,899
Force had never shown up so for instance

789
00:35:01,839 --> 00:34:58,539
in the case of the Michigan swamp gas

790
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:01,849
sightings Project Blue Book actually

791
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:05,119
sent they sent Hynek but they also sent

792
00:35:09,339 --> 00:35:08,960
a couple of their military guys who you

793
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:09,349
know

794
00:35:12,759 --> 00:35:11,119
Hynek would talk to these people and the

795
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:12,769
military guys would talk to those people

796
00:35:18,579 --> 00:35:16,130
and sometimes their paths would cross

797
00:35:21,549 --> 00:35:18,589
and the research would overlap but they

798
00:35:23,890 --> 00:35:21,559
had to had to have been pretty maddening

799
00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:23,900
for these witnesses to have you know

800
00:35:27,759 --> 00:35:25,640
well here's Hynek talking to me and

801
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:27,769
Hynek is you know pretty open-minded and

802
00:35:31,539 --> 00:35:30,170
he seems to be you know really open to

803
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:31,549
what i'm telling him and then on the

804
00:35:34,479 --> 00:35:32,690
other hand they'd be interviewed by

805
00:35:38,829 --> 00:35:34,489
these military people who would just be

806
00:35:41,769 --> 00:35:38,839
you know very very short with them and

807
00:35:45,970 --> 00:35:41,779
and you know and often belittle them so

808
00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:45,980
it was kind of a weird dynamic yes

809
00:35:52,210 --> 00:35:49,190
absolutely and enough off the air we

810
00:35:56,109 --> 00:35:52,220
were talking about how dr. Hynek really

811
00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:56,119
did stand up for people who had seen

812
00:35:59,890 --> 00:35:58,249
these things he didn't feel that people

813
00:36:01,239 --> 00:35:59,900
should be ridiculed can you talk to us a

814
00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:01,249
little bit about that because that's a

815
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:03,200
really standout characteristic that this

816
00:36:08,170 --> 00:36:06,410
man had very I had in his time I agree

817
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:08,180
it was it was one of his real strengths

818
00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:10,670
and it emerged very very early on he

819
00:36:16,870 --> 00:36:12,200
started working for the Air Force in

820
00:36:19,839 --> 00:36:16,880
nineteen in 1948 1949 timeframe and in

821
00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:19,849
1952 just a couple years later he was

822
00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:23,119
actually giving an address to a group of

823
00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:24,529
professional scientists at their

824
00:36:28,809 --> 00:36:26,420
convention and that was the first time

825
00:36:31,329 --> 00:36:28,819
he said the ridicule is not part of the

826
00:36:33,009 --> 00:36:31,339
scientific method in the American public

827
00:36:36,819 --> 00:36:33,019
should not be taught that it is and he

828
00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:36,829
truly believed that he really felt once

829
00:36:39,579 --> 00:36:39,380
he once he actually started going out in

830
00:36:42,339 --> 00:36:39,589
the

831
00:36:44,349 --> 00:36:42,349
field and investigating UFO cases and

832
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:44,359
really having some face time with UFO

833
00:36:49,479 --> 00:36:47,450
witnesses he really learned to value the

834
00:36:52,839 --> 00:36:49,489
human factor and to respect the human

835
00:36:55,989 --> 00:36:52,849
factor so to him it was a really really

836
00:36:58,690 --> 00:36:55,999
important part of UFO research that the

837
00:37:00,430 --> 00:36:58,700
witnesses had to be treated with respect

838
00:37:02,709 --> 00:37:00,440
you needed to listen to what they had to

839
00:37:03,339 --> 00:37:02,719
say you needed to put some thought into

840
00:37:06,190 --> 00:37:03,349
it

841
00:37:08,140 --> 00:37:06,200
and give them a proper response now

842
00:37:10,150 --> 00:37:08,150
obviously you know what we said before

843
00:37:13,180 --> 00:37:10,160
about the Michigan swamp gas case people

844
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:13,190
believed he hadn't done those things you

845
00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:15,410
know and it's easy it's easy to see why

846
00:37:19,749 --> 00:37:17,569
they felt that way so I guess you could

847
00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:19,759
say that case was maybe an aberration in

848
00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:22,190
the way Hynek approached things but by

849
00:37:27,249 --> 00:37:24,950
and large throughout his career you know

850
00:37:30,190 --> 00:37:27,259
one of his number one prime his prime

851
00:37:32,799 --> 00:37:30,200
directive was to treat witnesses with

852
00:37:36,009 --> 00:37:32,809
respect and and really honor and respect

853
00:37:38,289 --> 00:37:36,019
their experience it was just tremendous

854
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:38,299
that's why I think we have to give him

855
00:37:42,910 --> 00:37:39,920
the white hat you know that he was a

856
00:37:45,999 --> 00:37:42,920
good guy and in what he did that's

857
00:37:47,859 --> 00:37:46,009
that's tremendous now let's talk about

858
00:37:49,569 --> 00:37:47,869
some of these amazing cases that you

859
00:37:51,549 --> 00:37:49,579
have in the book because they're great

860
00:37:54,249 --> 00:37:51,559
to read you've done exactly Drive

861
00:37:56,979 --> 00:37:54,259
writing about them talk to us about your

862
00:37:58,479 --> 00:37:56,989
favorite case well first of all thank

863
00:38:00,640 --> 00:37:58,489
you for the compliment that was one of

864
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:00,650
my big worries going into this book was

865
00:38:05,469 --> 00:38:03,680
I realized there has art with some of

866
00:38:07,359 --> 00:38:05,479
these really high-profile UFO cases

867
00:38:09,789 --> 00:38:07,369
there has already been so much written

868
00:38:12,729 --> 00:38:09,799
about them by so many different people

869
00:38:16,359 --> 00:38:12,739
how could I possibly tell these same

870
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:16,369
stories again in a new way and make them

871
00:38:20,529 --> 00:38:18,410
feel you know fresh and new so I

872
00:38:25,359 --> 00:38:20,539
appreciate the fact that that they read

873
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:25,369
that way to you hey thanks Pablo but

874
00:38:31,479 --> 00:38:27,410
that makes me feel good so but one of

875
00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:31,489
those big cases was the 1973 abduction

876
00:38:36,549 --> 00:38:33,710
of Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker in

877
00:38:39,999 --> 00:38:36,559
Pascagoula Mississippi this was always a

878
00:38:42,609 --> 00:38:40,009
big big case for me because as I

879
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:42,619
mentioned earlier in the show you know I

880
00:38:47,499 --> 00:38:44,690
started got exposed to science fiction

881
00:38:49,299 --> 00:38:47,509
and aliens very very early in life and

882
00:38:51,489 --> 00:38:49,309
then as I was growing up I would read

883
00:38:53,530 --> 00:38:51,499
every kind of UFO and paranormal book I

884
00:38:57,490 --> 00:38:53,540
could get my hands on

885
00:39:00,010 --> 00:38:57,500
and then 1973 October 1973 I would have

886
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:00,020
been 13 years old at the time suddenly

887
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:02,450
this UFO abduction case makes national

888
00:39:08,380 --> 00:39:05,690
headlines it's on the TV news it's on

889
00:39:10,990 --> 00:39:08,390
the radio it's in the newspapers and for

890
00:39:14,410 --> 00:39:11,000
me as a 13 year old up to that point my

891
00:39:16,359 --> 00:39:14,420
only involvement with the UFO phenomenon

892
00:39:19,570 --> 00:39:16,369
had been what I read in books that I got

893
00:39:21,370 --> 00:39:19,580
at the library or magazines or you know

894
00:39:24,099 --> 00:39:21,380
whatever I could lay my hands on all of

895
00:39:27,339 --> 00:39:24,109
a sudden here's a real UFO event and

896
00:39:29,770 --> 00:39:27,349
it's a it's a big event and they're

897
00:39:31,630 --> 00:39:29,780
talking about it on the news they're

898
00:39:34,510 --> 00:39:31,640
talking about it on TV on the radio so

899
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:34,520
for the first time I'm like experiencing

900
00:39:42,220 --> 00:39:38,330
a real UFO event it's not just a story

901
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:42,230
it's real it's happening it's happening

902
00:39:48,490 --> 00:39:47,210
so so these two these two guys Calvin

903
00:39:49,750 --> 00:39:48,500
Parker and Charlie Nixon they're out

904
00:39:55,349 --> 00:39:49,760
fishing one night in Pascagoula

905
00:39:59,050 --> 00:39:55,359
Mississippi and this glowing blue object

906
00:40:01,980 --> 00:39:59,060
ten or twenty ten or thirty feet feet in

907
00:40:04,329 --> 00:40:01,990
length and antennae 20 feet high

908
00:40:06,839 --> 00:40:04,339
approaches them from across the Bayou

909
00:40:09,609 --> 00:40:06,849
and it's flashing these blue lights and

910
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:09,619
it comes close to them and hovers near

911
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:11,050
them and these two guys are just

912
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:13,760
paralyzed in fright and there's suddenly

913
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:16,730
a door opens in the side of this object

914
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:19,730
and these three creatures come floating

915
00:40:24,970 --> 00:40:22,310
out not walking out but floating out and

916
00:40:27,130 --> 00:40:24,980
they're the creepiest sounding things

917
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:27,140
imaginable they're humanoid but they

918
00:40:32,740 --> 00:40:30,170
have lobster claws in front of the hands

919
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:32,750
and they have like round stumps at the

920
00:40:36,609 --> 00:40:34,730
bottoms of their legs it's the feet and

921
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:36,619
they've got they've got like pointy

922
00:40:42,609 --> 00:40:39,530
cones for nose and ears and little slits

923
00:40:44,170 --> 00:40:42,619
for eyes just really really strange

924
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:44,180
creatures they don't you almost sound

925
00:40:48,670 --> 00:40:45,890
like robots these guys thought that they

926
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:48,680
were being kidnapped by robots so they

927
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:50,330
get carried onboard this ship

928
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:52,130
they go through the door they go into

929
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:55,490
the ship they're separated Calvin Calvin

930
00:41:00,640 --> 00:40:58,130
Parker just passes out while he's being

931
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:00,650
while he's being taken on board the ship

932
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:02,480
so he doesn't remember anything at least

933
00:41:06,250 --> 00:41:05,330
not right away but Charles Hickson

934
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:06,260
remembers everything

935
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:08,570
he was examined by these creatures he

936
00:41:13,150 --> 00:41:10,400
was left alone for a while he was just

937
00:41:15,790 --> 00:41:13,160
scared to death and after about maybe 20

938
00:41:18,310 --> 00:41:15,800
minutes or so to his best guess they

939
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:18,320
take him back out and they leave him

940
00:41:22,450 --> 00:41:20,090
back on the pier where they found him

941
00:41:24,940 --> 00:41:22,460
and by this time Calvin has already been

942
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:24,950
left on the pier and Calvin is like

943
00:41:28,290 --> 00:41:26,210
going into shock

944
00:41:30,730 --> 00:41:28,300
Charlie has to slap them a couple times

945
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:30,740
so you take you know to give him to stop

946
00:41:35,530 --> 00:41:32,450
crying and you know kind of give her a

947
00:41:37,150 --> 00:41:35,540
fax so they call the sheriff and this is

948
00:41:39,340 --> 00:41:37,160
one of them ate really amazing parts of

949
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:39,350
this story they call the sheriff first

950
00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:40,640
of all they're terrified to call the

951
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:41,870
sheriff because they know they're going

952
00:41:46,660 --> 00:41:44,960
to be made fun of that yeah yeah then

953
00:41:48,010 --> 00:41:46,670
they realize and this is such a human

954
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:48,020
thing they start thinking we'll wait a

955
00:41:51,070 --> 00:41:49,850
minute what if that thing is still out

956
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:51,080
there somewhere what if those creatures

957
00:41:53,950 --> 00:41:52,640
are going to kidnap other people tonight

958
00:41:56,290 --> 00:41:53,960
we can't let that happen

959
00:42:00,400 --> 00:41:56,300
so they're driven by this really like

960
00:42:03,250 --> 00:42:00,410
brave sense of duty to protect their

961
00:42:04,780 --> 00:42:03,260
fellow man and they you know they bite

962
00:42:06,610 --> 00:42:04,790
the bullet they call the sheriff and the

963
00:42:10,420 --> 00:42:06,620
sheriff and his deputies are actually

964
00:42:12,490 --> 00:42:10,430
pretty respectful of them but what they

965
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:12,500
do is so the sheriff so they separate

966
00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:16,130
the two guys separate rooms they get

967
00:42:19,570 --> 00:42:18,260
they get you know they get the report of

968
00:42:21,970 --> 00:42:19,580
what happened from each of these two

969
00:42:24,310 --> 00:42:21,980
guys and their stories match perfectly

970
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:24,320
and then what the sheriff does is he

971
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:26,450
pulls a little trick on on Calvin and

972
00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:28,490
Charlie he puts him back in the same

973
00:42:33,220 --> 00:42:31,100
room together and leaves him alone for a

974
00:42:34,690 --> 00:42:33,230
few minutes and what Calvin is Charlie

975
00:42:36,690 --> 00:42:34,700
don't know is that the sheriff left a

976
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:36,700
running tape recorder in that room

977
00:42:41,530 --> 00:42:39,530
because he because he thought he thought

978
00:42:44,740 --> 00:42:41,540
that these guys might be pulling his leg

979
00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:44,750
and he thought leave him alone if we

980
00:42:47,620 --> 00:42:46,190
leave him alone they'll admit that

981
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:47,630
they're hoaxing this whole thing and

982
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:49,130
they'll just be patting each other on

983
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:50,720
the back for pulling off such a great

984
00:42:56,770 --> 00:42:53,510
joke well what he gets is the exact

985
00:42:59,470 --> 00:42:56,780
opposite these two guys are scared out

986
00:43:02,050 --> 00:42:59,480
of their wit's they're going crazy

987
00:43:03,820 --> 00:43:02,060
sitting at the sheriff's office they

988
00:43:05,290 --> 00:43:03,830
they they just want to get out of there

989
00:43:06,670 --> 00:43:05,300
they want to have a drink they're afraid

990
00:43:10,060 --> 00:43:06,680
they'll never be able to sleep again

991
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:10,070
it's a terrifying conversation and it

992
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:12,310
really I don't know if you could

993
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:16,010
technically call it proof but it's very

994
00:43:20,170 --> 00:43:18,050
strong evidence that these two men had

995
00:43:24,309 --> 00:43:20,180
an incredibly intense

996
00:43:26,650 --> 00:43:24,319
areas that really really scarred them so

997
00:43:30,250 --> 00:43:26,660
the sheriff gets this tape recording of

998
00:43:32,650 --> 00:43:30,260
this conversation and thinks wow maybe

999
00:43:35,559 --> 00:43:32,660
something real happened so by the next

1000
00:43:37,059 --> 00:43:35,569
day people are worried enough that they

1001
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:37,069
take these two guys to the local Air

1002
00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:38,510
Force Base to have them check for

1003
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:40,400
radiation well they test to come up

1004
00:43:45,460 --> 00:43:43,010
negative thank God but in the meantime

1005
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:45,470
it again it's picked up national

1006
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:47,770
headlines that's become a huge huge case

1007
00:43:52,510 --> 00:43:50,210
dr. Hynek at this point is actually

1008
00:43:54,460 --> 00:43:52,520
working for NBC News because they were

1009
00:43:58,210 --> 00:43:54,470
going to make a documentary about the

1010
00:44:00,760 --> 00:43:58,220
UFO phenomena so NBC sends dr. Hynek

1011
00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:00,770
down to Pascagoula Mississippi he meets

1012
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:03,920
with Calvin and Charlie he hears that

1013
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:05,599
tape recording that the sheriff made in

1014
00:44:11,650 --> 00:44:07,730
secret which he finds very very

1015
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:11,660
convincing he sits in a room while while

1016
00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:14,240
a psychiatrist attempts to hypnotize the

1017
00:44:19,660 --> 00:44:17,569
two men and he's able to hypnotize them

1018
00:44:23,319 --> 00:44:19,670
but when he gets them both to the part

1019
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:23,329
where the weird object appears over them

1020
00:44:29,770 --> 00:44:26,930
over the water mm-hmm both men go into a

1021
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,780
pure panic and they can't continue so

1022
00:44:33,069 --> 00:44:31,520
they have to be taken out a hypnosis for

1023
00:44:36,130 --> 00:44:33,079
fear that you know they might encounter

1024
00:44:39,220 --> 00:44:36,140
some kind of psychic damage so Hynek

1025
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:39,230
walks out of that room it's so impressed

1026
00:44:45,010 --> 00:44:42,290
with these two guys their stories remain

1027
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:45,020
consistent their terror under hypnosis

1028
00:44:49,329 --> 00:44:47,930
was impossible to fake and then there's

1029
00:44:51,370 --> 00:44:49,339
that secret tape recording that the

1030
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:51,380
sheriff made in which these two guys

1031
00:44:55,599 --> 00:44:53,359
have you know that was a perfect

1032
00:44:57,789 --> 00:44:55,609
opportunity for yeah all that all the

1033
00:45:00,280 --> 00:44:57,799
elements they all stacked up to make

1034
00:45:03,609 --> 00:45:00,290
this a really really convincing case

1035
00:45:06,549 --> 00:45:03,619
Teaneck and it's one of my favorite

1036
00:45:08,589 --> 00:45:06,559
cases yeah it is a great case I mean

1037
00:45:12,299 --> 00:45:08,599
you're right and it's really tough to

1038
00:45:14,740 --> 00:45:12,309
fake that kind of panic and terror and

1039
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:14,750
those poor guys and what they went

1040
00:45:20,770 --> 00:45:19,130
through there was that I was just going

1041
00:45:23,890 --> 00:45:20,780
to say I had the good fortune to

1042
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:23,900
interview Joe Cole ingo who was the

1043
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:26,240
local attorney who represented Charley

1044
00:45:30,579 --> 00:45:28,760
and Kelvin and he had some really

1045
00:45:32,170 --> 00:45:30,589
interesting interesting things to say he

1046
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:32,180
worked he worked very closely with these

1047
00:45:36,730 --> 00:45:33,470
guys in the aftermath

1048
00:45:38,530 --> 00:45:36,740
of their abduction and he told me he

1049
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:38,540
told me they never gave me any reason to

1050
00:45:42,099 --> 00:45:39,440
doubt their story

1051
00:45:44,140 --> 00:45:42,109
he said I didn't think they were crazy

1052
00:45:47,020 --> 00:45:44,150
but people thought I was crazy for not

1053
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:47,030
thinking they were crazy and he stood by

1054
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:48,650
them and he defended them you know he

1055
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:51,050
defended in Celeste and he and he was

1056
00:45:56,079 --> 00:45:52,640
also there when they actually had a

1057
00:45:57,730 --> 00:45:56,089
polygraph test now only only Charlie had

1058
00:46:00,940 --> 00:45:57,740
the polygraph test because Kelvin had a

1059
00:46:03,849 --> 00:46:00,950
nervous breakdown like that day and he

1060
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:03,859
had to be institutionalized so so

1061
00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:06,050
Charlie Hickson undergoes the polygraph

1062
00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:08,270
test and the polygraph operator comes

1063
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:12,710
out and he says and he says I'm not

1064
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,410
saying he saw a spaceship but when he

1065
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:17,680
said he saw a spaceship he wasn't lying

1066
00:46:23,740 --> 00:46:20,480
so you know how much proof da very

1067
00:46:26,140 --> 00:46:23,750
important I know that something real

1068
00:46:28,059 --> 00:46:26,150
happened here and Hynek Hynek just

1069
00:46:29,980 --> 00:46:28,069
maintained to the end something real

1070
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:29,990
happened to these two men I don't know

1071
00:46:35,950 --> 00:46:33,290
what it was but it was real he had no

1072
00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:35,960
doubt it was real now with Hynek

1073
00:46:40,230 --> 00:46:37,569
interviewing them and hearing that

1074
00:46:43,589 --> 00:46:40,240
secret tape and all of that was that

1075
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:43,599
kind of a turning point for Hynek or a

1076
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:47,119
cementing of hynek's understanding that

1077
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:49,130
this was a you know these things are

1078
00:46:53,230 --> 00:46:51,290
real these things are happening the

1079
00:46:55,450 --> 00:46:53,240
place where I took them from skeptic -

1080
00:46:58,089 --> 00:46:55,460
at least we could call it kind of like a

1081
00:47:00,280 --> 00:46:58,099
believer I guess well he had already

1082
00:47:03,069 --> 00:47:00,290
made that journey he had already gotten

1083
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:03,079
but it by the apps' the outcome of the

1084
00:47:08,140 --> 00:47:05,930
swamp gas case he had pretty thoroughly

1085
00:47:10,450 --> 00:47:08,150
changed his mind and decided that this

1086
00:47:13,390 --> 00:47:10,460
was a real phenomenon and it was worthy

1087
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:13,400
of scientific study but you do make a

1088
00:47:18,370 --> 00:47:15,050
good point though because what happened

1089
00:47:20,260 --> 00:47:18,380
after that pascagoula event with Charlie

1090
00:47:24,790 --> 00:47:20,270
and Calvin being abducted by the strange

1091
00:47:27,250 --> 00:47:24,800
claw claw men that changed hynek's mind

1092
00:47:29,710 --> 00:47:27,260
about Close Encounters of the Third Kind

1093
00:47:32,170 --> 00:47:29,720
which hmm as we all know that's a close

1094
00:47:35,170 --> 00:47:32,180
encounter that involves some sort of

1095
00:47:39,010 --> 00:47:35,180
entity or creature associated with the

1096
00:47:41,620 --> 00:47:39,020
UFO so even though by 1966 Hynek was

1097
00:47:43,390 --> 00:47:41,630
pretty accepting that this was a real

1098
00:47:45,339 --> 00:47:43,400
phenomenon that these things really were

1099
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:45,349
appearing in the sky and the people who

1100
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:46,970
saw them weren't nuts

1101
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:49,130
he still had a ways to go with Close

1102
00:47:53,950 --> 00:47:51,110
Encounters of the Third Kind they still

1103
00:47:56,860 --> 00:47:53,960
made him uncomfortable because they just

1104
00:47:59,250 --> 00:47:56,870
went into this realm of things that not

1105
00:48:02,170 --> 00:47:59,260
only could you not explain it but there

1106
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:02,180
may not exist any sort of rational

1107
00:48:05,950 --> 00:48:03,890
explanation at all that you could ever

1108
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:05,960
reach so he was just really

1109
00:48:09,310 --> 00:48:07,610
uncomfortable with that but what

1110
00:48:10,330 --> 00:48:09,320
happened was right around this right

1111
00:48:13,540 --> 00:48:10,340
around this timeframe

1112
00:48:15,610 --> 00:48:13,550
he had gone to had just gone to Papua

1113
00:48:18,070 --> 00:48:15,620
New Guinea and met with father Gill who

1114
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:18,080
had this bizarre close encounter of the

1115
00:48:23,740 --> 00:48:21,440
third kind in 1959 where he waved to

1116
00:48:26,830 --> 00:48:23,750
these UFO occupants and they yeah all

1117
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:26,840
that yeah I a news aura so high an

1118
00:48:31,180 --> 00:48:29,210
accountant a yeah Hynek had just come

1119
00:48:33,850 --> 00:48:31,190
back from New Guinea just before the

1120
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:33,860
pascagoula case so he's already thinking

1121
00:48:41,950 --> 00:48:38,930
wow this priest in New Guinea was was a

1122
00:48:44,830 --> 00:48:41,960
very convincing witness I really believe

1123
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:44,840
he saw something within a matter of a

1124
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:46,250
couple of weeks he's down in Mississippi

1125
00:48:51,340 --> 00:48:49,490
intervening these two men who said they

1126
00:48:53,140 --> 00:48:51,350
were abducted by these claw men onto

1127
00:48:55,660 --> 00:48:53,150
this flying saucer and by this time

1128
00:48:57,130 --> 00:48:55,670
hynek's ready to start thinking okay

1129
00:48:59,560 --> 00:48:57,140
maybe I need to be more open-minded

1130
00:49:03,720 --> 00:48:59,570
about these about these alien encounters

1131
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:03,730
- yeah I mean it's an interesting

1132
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:06,530
evolution for him and one other thing

1133
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:09,680
that surprised me mark in your book was

1134
00:49:17,740 --> 00:49:13,130
the fact that Hynek was also considering

1135
00:49:21,070 --> 00:49:17,750
the possibility that these entities that

1136
00:49:24,340 --> 00:49:21,080
were coming into our airspace maybe

1137
00:49:27,490 --> 00:49:24,350
extra dimensional I was surprised - cute

1138
00:49:32,710 --> 00:49:27,500
that fascinating yeah isn't it isn't it

1139
00:49:36,220 --> 00:49:32,720
wild he um yes he yeah he really became

1140
00:49:39,340 --> 00:49:36,230
um I guess you could almost say fixated

1141
00:49:42,010 --> 00:49:39,350
on that concept and later in his later

1142
00:49:43,810 --> 00:49:42,020
years he really thought that I mean he

1143
00:49:46,990 --> 00:49:43,820
was he was always open to the

1144
00:49:48,430 --> 00:49:47,000
extra-terrestrial hypothesis he always

1145
00:49:50,050 --> 00:49:48,440
but he always said if you're going to

1146
00:49:51,820 --> 00:49:50,060
try to if you're going to try to push

1147
00:49:54,070 --> 00:49:51,830
that hypothesis then the burden is on

1148
00:49:55,750 --> 00:49:54,080
you to prove it and obviously nobody has

1149
00:49:59,530 --> 00:49:55,760
been able to prove that it up to this

1150
00:50:00,730 --> 00:49:59,540
day but Hynek was equally open to the

1151
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:00,740
idea of an

1152
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:04,250
extra dimensional hypothesis he actually

1153
00:50:11,620 --> 00:50:07,250
called it Mediterra steel which I

1154
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:11,630
thought was great term is so but one of

1155
00:50:15,490 --> 00:50:12,770
the things that's interesting to me

1156
00:50:18,340 --> 00:50:15,500
about this this sort of this route that

1157
00:50:20,859 --> 00:50:18,350
his mind started taking was it it really

1158
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:20,869
goes right back to his fascination as as

1159
00:50:24,609 --> 00:50:22,910
a high school and college student with

1160
00:50:26,980 --> 00:50:24,619
the Rosicrucians and with Rudolf Steiner

1161
00:50:29,980 --> 00:50:26,990
because Rudolf Steiner thought that

1162
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:29,990
there was something he called a the

1163
00:50:34,420 --> 00:50:31,850
super sensible realm that's one of my

1164
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:34,430
favorite terms now the super sensible

1165
00:50:40,650 --> 00:50:37,280
realm which is this parallel dimension

1166
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:40,660
that exists alongside ours in which

1167
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:45,410
living beings live and Steiner felt that

1168
00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:49,250
not only was this dimension real but we

1169
00:50:53,890 --> 00:50:51,440
could train ourselves with enough

1170
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:53,900
training and discipline we could we

1171
00:50:58,780 --> 00:50:56,690
could teach ourselves how to go into

1172
00:51:01,450 --> 00:50:58,790
that super sensible realm and then come

1173
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,460
back into our own world so these are

1174
00:51:05,349 --> 00:51:03,200
hynek's you know these are the ideas

1175
00:51:10,210 --> 00:51:05,359
that Hynek was toying with in his

1176
00:51:11,950 --> 00:51:10,220
teenage years in his early 20s and all

1177
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:11,960
of a sudden in later life he finds a way

1178
00:51:17,650 --> 00:51:15,290
to sort of use that same concept as a

1179
00:51:20,140 --> 00:51:17,660
possible explanation for the UFO

1180
00:51:21,790 --> 00:51:20,150
phenomenon yeah I found that really

1181
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:21,800
fascinating that so the parallel

1182
00:51:27,450 --> 00:51:24,530
dimension thing really really looms

1183
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:27,460
large in hynek's thinking later in life

1184
00:51:32,140 --> 00:51:30,650
that is so surprising to me we've had

1185
00:51:35,170 --> 00:51:32,150
people on the show that have talked

1186
00:51:37,660 --> 00:51:35,180
about this and but it's you know we

1187
00:51:39,670 --> 00:51:37,670
thought it was a fairly new concept to

1188
00:51:41,140 --> 00:51:39,680
be discussed but now you know we're

1189
00:51:44,590 --> 00:51:41,150
finding out Heinrich thought about this

1190
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:44,600
many many years ago and included it in

1191
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:46,640
his some of his explanations so it's

1192
00:51:52,210 --> 00:51:49,010
it's very it's fascinating that all of

1193
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:52,220
this is in your book so I think here is

1194
00:51:55,540 --> 00:51:53,450
I'm sorry go ahead

1195
00:51:56,830 --> 00:51:55,550
oh I was just going to say I mean there

1196
00:51:59,349 --> 00:51:56,840
there are some there's some other

1197
00:52:05,710 --> 00:51:59,359
interesting aspects to that whole the

1198
00:52:06,910 --> 00:52:05,720
the meta tourists real idea oh gosh now

1199
00:52:08,230 --> 00:52:06,920
but we should probably go to the

1200
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:08,240
question because I lost my freedom

1201
00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:16,500
okay we're going to take this question

1202
00:52:20,730 --> 00:52:17,980
quickly and then we're going to go to a

1203
00:52:24,180 --> 00:52:20,740
break this is from Trisha hi does hynix

1204
00:52:27,330 --> 00:52:24,190
personal memo ex-members express his

1205
00:52:29,790 --> 00:52:27,340
professional or official theory on the

1206
00:52:34,290 --> 00:52:29,800
Roswell UFO crash before he received

1207
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:34,300
Fame in the 60s we always have to deal

1208
00:52:40,170 --> 00:52:36,970
with Roswell don't we ha ha give it

1209
00:52:42,170 --> 00:52:40,180
Hynek Hynek was not a big fan I have to

1210
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:42,180
be honest I Nick was not a big fan of

1211
00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:44,890
Roswell or of any saucer crash stories

1212
00:52:49,830 --> 00:52:47,710
and a big reason for that was if you

1213
00:52:54,750 --> 00:52:49,840
start thinking in terms of a flying

1214
00:52:58,920 --> 00:52:54,760
saucer crashing into Earth that suggests

1215
00:53:02,880 --> 00:52:58,930
that the flying saucer the UFO was a

1216
00:53:04,380 --> 00:53:02,890
physical structure that was manufactured

1217
00:53:06,780 --> 00:53:04,390
by someone what some people would call

1218
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:06,790
the nuts and bolts the nuts and bolts

1219
00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:09,730
hypothesis and Hynek was never

1220
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:11,710
comfortable with that in fact oh this is

1221
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:13,090
the point I wanted to make before where

1222
00:53:17,820 --> 00:53:14,410
I just lost my train of thought it

1223
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:17,830
actually plays it as oh hold on will we

1224
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:19,330
all hold that thought till after the

1225
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,570
collective we hold a thought and we are

1226
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:24,640
going to comes back yes you better

1227
00:53:30,660 --> 00:53:28,690
remember okay so everybody we are going

1228
00:53:32,940 --> 00:53:30,670
to come back and have the rest of our

1229
00:53:35,730 --> 00:53:32,950
conversation mark O'Connell he is the

1230
00:53:37,650 --> 00:53:35,740
author of the Close Encounters man we're

1231
00:53:40,020 --> 00:53:37,660
going to talk about Close Encounters and

1232
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:40,030
those classifications Steven Spielberg

1233
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:42,970
and so much more so stay tuned everybody

1234
00:53:47,849 --> 00:53:45,130
you are listening to Supernatural girls

1235
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:47,859
radio we'll be right back

1236
00:53:52,470 --> 00:53:49,810
welcome back everyone to supernatural

1237
00:53:55,140 --> 00:53:52,480
Girls radio I'm your host Patricia Baker

1238
00:53:57,210 --> 00:53:55,150
I'm here with pk my co-host and our

1239
00:54:01,080 --> 00:53:57,220
tremendous guest tonight we're having so

1240
00:54:03,570 --> 00:54:01,090
much fun with him so darkness oh he is

1241
00:54:05,310 --> 00:54:03,580
here and now we're going to get back to

1242
00:54:08,190 --> 00:54:05,320
that train of thought that you picked up

1243
00:54:10,590 --> 00:54:08,200
right at the end of the last segment so

1244
00:54:13,830 --> 00:54:10,600
tell us tell us tell us what's up going

1245
00:54:15,930 --> 00:54:13,840
to pull it all together here oh well

1246
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:15,940
Trish's question was about Roswell and I

1247
00:54:20,820 --> 00:54:18,250
was I was making the case that dr. Hynek

1248
00:54:23,730 --> 00:54:20,830
was not fond of saucer crash stories

1249
00:54:24,780 --> 00:54:23,740
because they implied that the UFO was a

1250
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:24,790
was a solid

1251
00:54:28,590 --> 00:54:27,040
an affected object and dr. Hynek was

1252
00:54:31,740 --> 00:54:28,600
never really comfortable with that

1253
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:31,750
concept he thought it was possible but

1254
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:34,570
he was never comfortable with you know

1255
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:37,090
fully endorsing that so but what that

1256
00:54:43,140 --> 00:54:39,130
what that reminded me of was the

1257
00:54:46,140 --> 00:54:43,150
previous question about hynek's parallel

1258
00:54:48,540 --> 00:54:46,150
dimension thinking one of one of the

1259
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:48,550
ideas that he had along the lines of the

1260
00:54:53,450 --> 00:54:51,610
of the parallel dimension theory was he

1261
00:54:56,700 --> 00:54:53,460
would he would point out look

1262
00:54:59,130 --> 00:54:56,710
unidentified objects behave sometimes

1263
00:55:02,160 --> 00:54:59,140
they behave like solid objects sometimes

1264
00:55:04,230 --> 00:55:02,170
they behave like immaterial objects it's

1265
00:55:06,570 --> 00:55:04,240
the very same object it can be

1266
00:55:09,660 --> 00:55:06,580
photographed you can throw a rock at it

1267
00:55:12,300 --> 00:55:09,670
you can shoot a gun at it you can it can

1268
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:12,310
leave landing marks or scorched earth or

1269
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:15,280
scorched bushes so it behaves very much

1270
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:19,090
like a physical object and then suddenly

1271
00:55:26,310 --> 00:55:21,370
it will vanish it will seem to

1272
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:26,320
dematerialization could compare that to

1273
00:55:30,330 --> 00:55:28,690
the characteristics of light which has

1274
00:55:32,430 --> 00:55:30,340
always puzzled scientists it behaves

1275
00:55:34,740 --> 00:55:32,440
like a particle and it behaves like a

1276
00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:34,750
wave how do you explain that it can't be

1277
00:55:39,330 --> 00:55:36,790
both and yet somehow it appears to be

1278
00:55:43,230 --> 00:55:39,340
both so Hynek would apply that Hynek

1279
00:55:45,930 --> 00:55:43,240
made to sit that use that analogy to

1280
00:55:48,570 --> 00:55:45,940
explain this sort of unreality of UFOs

1281
00:55:50,220 --> 00:55:48,580
the fact that thing can they can seem

1282
00:55:52,380 --> 00:55:50,230
like physical objects one moment and

1283
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:52,390
then seem like immaterial objects the

1284
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:54,250
next and that was one of his kind of

1285
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:56,650
supporting arguments for the parallel

1286
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:00,160
dimension theory mm-hmm yes well that

1287
00:56:03,990 --> 00:56:01,810
makes sense I mean I can understand

1288
00:56:07,890 --> 00:56:04,000
where he would come up with that but now

1289
00:56:10,220 --> 00:56:07,900
he was the person who came up with the

1290
00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:10,230
term Close Encounters and the

1291
00:56:15,990 --> 00:56:13,510
classifications right yes and yet it

1292
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:16,000
Steven Spielberg kind of stole it from

1293
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:18,130
him didn't he

1294
00:56:21,810 --> 00:56:21,130
uh yeah it was a let's say it was

1295
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:21,820
inadvertent

1296
00:56:29,490 --> 00:56:26,170
what if it came from reading I'm being

1297
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:29,500
the diplomatic here yes this came up

1298
00:56:34,580 --> 00:56:31,450
just came up her early about in my

1299
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:34,590
research so so I'm I'm in mark Rogers

1300
00:56:38,109 --> 00:56:36,370
basement and I'm looking through the

1301
00:56:41,589 --> 00:56:38,119
Koufos files

1302
00:56:44,109 --> 00:56:41,599
and I'm I reached the letter s and I

1303
00:56:46,749 --> 00:56:44,119
find two files one is labeled Sagan and

1304
00:56:49,029 --> 00:56:46,759
the other is labeled Spielberg so of

1305
00:56:50,319 --> 00:56:49,039
course I grabbed both of those files and

1306
00:56:52,989 --> 00:56:50,329
I certainly get through this Spielberg

1307
00:56:54,730 --> 00:56:52,999
one first and the first thing I find in

1308
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:54,740
the Spielberg find there are only three

1309
00:56:58,839 --> 00:56:56,450
or four sheets of paper in the Spielberg

1310
00:57:03,009 --> 00:56:58,849
file it's very thin but the first paper

1311
00:57:05,940 --> 00:57:03,019
I find is a copy of a letter that dr.

1312
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:05,950
Hynek had written to Steven Spielberg

1313
00:57:11,859 --> 00:57:10,249
when he found out that mr. Spielberg had

1314
00:57:15,099 --> 00:57:11,869
appropriated his term Close Encounters

1315
00:57:18,809 --> 00:57:15,109
of the Third Kind as the title of this

1316
00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:18,819
new UFO movie he was shooting so Hynek

1317
00:57:25,180 --> 00:57:21,710
very Hynek was also very diplomatic

1318
00:57:28,210 --> 00:57:25,190
he wrote this very it's almost awkwardly

1319
00:57:31,210 --> 00:57:28,220
polite letter that he wrote to Steven

1320
00:57:32,799 --> 00:57:31,220
Spielberg sort of saying um you know

1321
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:32,809
that title of this movie you're making

1322
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:39,440
that's mine we should talk so so so the

1323
00:57:44,499 --> 00:57:41,930
next piece of paper in this file is the

1324
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:44,509
return letter from Steven Spielberg a

1325
00:57:50,349 --> 00:57:46,880
week or two later Steven Spielberg

1326
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:50,359
writes back to dr. Hynek and says oh I'm

1327
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:53,119
so sorry but don't worry that's not what

1328
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:54,710
we're calling the movie we're calling it

1329
00:58:00,700 --> 00:57:57,200
watch the skies but he said I just

1330
00:58:02,259 --> 00:58:00,710
thought yeah but he said but Spielberg

1331
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:02,269
said but I want you to know that your

1332
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:04,970
book this is he's referring to the book

1333
00:58:10,089 --> 00:58:07,130
the UFO experience in which Hynek sort

1334
00:58:11,019 --> 00:58:10,099
of you know introduced these concepts of

1335
00:58:13,390 --> 00:58:11,029
the Close Encounters

1336
00:58:14,950 --> 00:58:13,400
so Spielberg says but I want you to know

1337
00:58:16,660 --> 00:58:14,960
that your book the UFO experience is

1338
00:58:18,940 --> 00:58:16,670
required reading for everybody on the

1339
00:58:21,220 --> 00:58:18,950
movie crew I want everybody on my

1340
00:58:24,130 --> 00:58:21,230
creative staff to you know to understand

1341
00:58:27,309 --> 00:58:24,140
your work so and of course watch the

1342
00:58:29,289 --> 00:58:27,319
skies also comes from another source

1343
00:58:32,049 --> 00:58:29,299
it's a immortal line of dialogue from

1344
00:58:34,749 --> 00:58:32,059
the 1951 movie the thing from another

1345
00:58:36,609 --> 00:58:34,759
world but at the end of the movie when

1346
00:58:39,549 --> 00:58:36,619
the reporter warns the world watched the

1347
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:39,559
skies watch the skies so well of course

1348
00:58:42,670 --> 00:58:41,119
we know that the title gets switched

1349
00:58:45,729 --> 00:58:42,680
back to Close Encounters of the Third

1350
00:58:46,900 --> 00:58:45,739
Kind real Spielberg and Hynek they

1351
00:58:51,249 --> 00:58:46,910
worked it all out they were both

1352
00:58:52,329 --> 00:58:51,259
grownups they worked it out and Hynek

1353
00:58:54,959 --> 00:58:52,339
signed on us

1354
00:58:56,589 --> 00:58:54,969
McCullough consultant to the movie they

1355
00:58:58,599 --> 00:58:56,599
Spielberg and his production company

1356
00:59:03,009 --> 00:58:58,609
paid Hynek for the rights to use the

1357
00:59:05,049 --> 00:59:03,019
title and for the rights to adapt any of

1358
00:59:07,089 --> 00:59:05,059
the stories that were told in the book

1359
00:59:08,799 --> 00:59:07,099
the UFO experience and then they hired

1360
00:59:10,719 --> 00:59:08,809
him on for three days on set as a

1361
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:10,729
technical consultant and then of course

1362
00:59:18,969 --> 00:59:14,930
as many of us know that led to a

1363
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:18,979
six-second cameo scene at the climate of

1364
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:21,410
the movie when the mothership the

1365
00:59:26,739 --> 00:59:23,690
mothership has just descended over the

1366
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:26,749
UFO landing site and all the technicians

1367
00:59:33,940 --> 00:59:31,130
are sort of hanging back out of fear of

1368
00:59:36,969 --> 00:59:33,950
this gigantic glowing mothership and

1369
00:59:40,180 --> 00:59:36,979
here's this guy in his you know his

1370
00:59:42,059 --> 00:59:40,190
tweed sport coat marching purposely

1371
00:59:44,289 --> 00:59:42,069
forward through all these technicians

1372
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:44,299
marching towards the mothership while

1373
00:59:49,690 --> 00:59:46,880
everybody else is hanging back and it's

1374
00:59:52,299 --> 00:59:49,700
J Allen Hynek any strokes just guilty

1375
00:59:53,469 --> 00:59:52,309
and he fiddles with his pipe and it

1376
00:59:56,109 --> 00:59:53,479
sticks it in his mouth

1377
00:59:57,880 --> 00:59:56,119
and then he you know he stares in wonder

1378
00:59:59,589 --> 00:59:57,890
at this magnificent mothership so that

1379
01:00:03,700 --> 00:59:59,599
was hynek's movie career that was just

1380
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:03,710
six second role in the movie incredible

1381
01:00:09,489 --> 01:00:07,130
what a highlight and yet I did hear from

1382
01:00:11,559 --> 01:00:09,499
one of your other interviews that there

1383
01:00:13,329 --> 01:00:11,569
was also some other footage shot but it

1384
01:00:15,339 --> 01:00:13,339
ended up on the cutting room floor

1385
01:00:17,079 --> 01:00:15,349
probably good that it did because it

1386
01:00:19,089 --> 01:00:17,089
sounded really hokey huh

1387
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:19,099
yeah I think that it was pretty corny I

1388
01:00:23,739 --> 01:00:20,930
guess they must have had some time to

1389
01:00:26,769 --> 01:00:23,749
kill on the set or something because

1390
01:00:29,559 --> 01:00:26,779
because so in the in the movie in the in

1391
01:00:31,839 --> 01:00:29,569
the movie as it exists now we never see

1392
01:00:34,959 --> 01:00:31,849
Hynek in the same shot with the alien

1393
01:00:36,819 --> 01:00:34,969
creatures okay well what happened was

1394
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:36,829
the day they shot the hynek's cameo

1395
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:38,450
scene they actually did shoot a couple

1396
01:00:46,269 --> 01:00:41,690
scenes with Hynek interacting with the

1397
01:00:48,430 --> 01:00:46,279
aliens so he described how they had

1398
01:00:50,019 --> 01:00:48,440
Spielberg had Heineken get down on his

1399
01:00:52,989 --> 01:00:50,029
knees because the aliens were you know

1400
01:00:56,259 --> 01:00:52,999
pretty short so he got down on his knees

1401
01:00:58,509 --> 01:00:56,269
and sort of allowed the little aliens to

1402
01:01:01,509 --> 01:00:58,519
play with him and he said they would tug

1403
01:01:03,519 --> 01:01:01,519
at his goatee and one of the aliens

1404
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:03,529
grabbed his pipe and stuck it up his

1405
01:01:09,070 --> 01:01:05,210
note not hynix nose

1406
01:01:11,050 --> 01:01:09,080
suck it up his own alien nose haha so

1407
01:01:12,970 --> 01:01:11,060
there was all sorts there was also just

1408
01:01:16,030 --> 01:01:12,980
goofy business going on with the pipe

1409
01:01:17,470 --> 01:01:16,040
with the goatee and you know if

1410
01:01:19,090 --> 01:01:17,480
Spielberg had wanted to he could have

1411
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:19,100
included those scenes in the movie and

1412
01:01:23,710 --> 01:01:20,930
it would have been it would have been a

1413
01:01:25,570 --> 01:01:23,720
good moment of humor but it probably

1414
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:25,580
wouldn't have played well it would have

1415
01:01:30,250 --> 01:01:27,770
kind of ruined the mood about dramatic

1416
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:30,260
scene so high an agnostic so Hynek

1417
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:32,090
enjoyed shooting the scene he was very

1418
01:01:37,060 --> 01:01:34,010
very grateful that they had been

1419
01:01:40,750 --> 01:01:37,070
included movie yeah that's good I agree

1420
01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:40,760
with that incredible so now one of the

1421
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:43,520
things that really I think turned Hynek

1422
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:46,250
around in what you wrote about in the

1423
01:01:53,290 --> 01:01:49,490
book are all of the military people the

1424
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:53,300
pilots especially who saw UFOs and

1425
01:02:01,800 --> 01:01:56,570
reported them he was unable to dismiss

1426
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:01,810
their accounts right oh yeah absolutely

1427
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:04,130
there were yeah there were certain

1428
01:02:07,870 --> 01:02:05,810
things certain things that Hynek would

1429
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:07,880
look for in a case that he always found

1430
01:02:12,010 --> 01:02:10,130
convincing I I had mentioned a few

1431
01:02:13,870 --> 01:02:12,020
minutes ago how he was he was always a

1432
01:02:17,530 --> 01:02:13,880
little uneasy with the Close Encounters

1433
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:17,540
of the Third Kind cases involving alien

1434
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:19,520
alien entities even though those were

1435
01:02:24,130 --> 01:02:21,410
often the most dramatic and you know got

1436
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:24,140
the big headlines Close Encounters of

1437
01:02:29,770 --> 01:02:26,690
the second kind were the cases that

1438
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:29,780
Hynek really really gravitated towards

1439
01:02:36,340 --> 01:02:32,570
because he felt that they offered the

1440
01:02:38,770 --> 01:02:36,350
most scientific evidence for study so

1441
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:38,780
that would include say a visual radar

1442
01:02:43,540 --> 01:02:41,450
sighting somebody somebody sees a UFO

1443
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:43,550
from the ground or from the cockpit of a

1444
01:02:48,220 --> 01:02:46,130
plane and the radar operator at the

1445
01:02:50,860 --> 01:02:48,230
nearby control tower sees the same thing

1446
01:02:52,780 --> 01:02:50,870
on on his or her radar scope that kind

1447
01:02:54,430 --> 01:02:52,790
of sighting Hynek found very convincing

1448
01:02:57,850 --> 01:02:54,440
well it just so happens a lot of the

1449
01:02:59,740 --> 01:02:57,860
sightings involving military people were

1450
01:03:01,960 --> 01:02:59,750
that kind of sighting they would involve

1451
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:01,970
pilots and aircraft they would involve

1452
01:03:08,370 --> 01:03:05,450
radar operators they would involve staff

1453
01:03:10,510 --> 01:03:08,380
up in the control tower of an airbase

1454
01:03:12,130 --> 01:03:10,520
those are very credible witnesses

1455
01:03:13,810 --> 01:03:12,140
especially when you have two or three or

1456
01:03:15,730 --> 01:03:13,820
four of them all at the same time seeing

1457
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:15,740
the same thing and then when you have

1458
01:03:18,910 --> 01:03:17,210
and then when you have that object

1459
01:03:21,039 --> 01:03:18,920
showing up on on the radar

1460
01:03:22,839 --> 01:03:21,049
mean in the control tower making the

1461
01:03:26,260 --> 01:03:22,849
exact same movements that the people

1462
01:03:27,549 --> 01:03:26,270
outside are describing that's a pretty

1463
01:03:30,250 --> 01:03:27,559
convincing case

1464
01:03:32,319 --> 01:03:30,260
so yeah Hina goddess honey put a lot of

1465
01:03:34,890 --> 01:03:32,329
stock in those cases and as I said those

1466
01:03:38,890 --> 01:03:34,900
kinds of cases very often involved

1467
01:03:41,380 --> 01:03:38,900
involve military people so he fought

1468
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:41,390
yeah he found pilots extremely credible

1469
01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:44,000
and then there's the other part of in a

1470
01:03:50,230 --> 01:03:46,160
case that was so dramatic that the Air

1471
01:03:52,030 --> 01:03:50,240
Force would send up a plane that speaks

1472
01:03:54,579 --> 01:03:52,040
to the gravity of the situation the Air

1473
01:03:57,220 --> 01:03:54,589
Force doesn't send up a plane for

1474
01:03:59,020 --> 01:03:57,230
nothing no they must feel pretty certain

1475
01:04:01,780 --> 01:03:59,030
that there's an intruder in the sky to

1476
01:04:03,730 --> 01:04:01,790
send up a plane to investigate and there

1477
01:04:07,150 --> 01:04:03,740
are like one case in particular in the

1478
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:07,160
early 50s in South Dakota South Dakota

1479
01:04:11,579 --> 01:04:09,890
and North Dakota case where the military

1480
01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:11,589
plane that went up to pursue the UFO

1481
01:04:17,650 --> 01:04:15,049
it's camera actually locked on to the

1482
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:17,660
object which means that the camera

1483
01:04:23,559 --> 01:04:20,450
detected a solid object ahead of the

1484
01:04:26,260 --> 01:04:23,569
plane it didn't get any footage the film

1485
01:04:28,750 --> 01:04:26,270
was useless but just one fact just the

1486
01:04:30,849 --> 01:04:28,760
fact that it was activated by the prints

1487
01:04:33,190 --> 01:04:30,859
on a physical object is pretty pretty

1488
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:33,200
dramatic those kinds of things had a

1489
01:04:39,010 --> 01:04:36,170
huge effect on Hynek yeah and then there

1490
01:04:41,980 --> 01:04:39,020
was a pilot that actually died when he

1491
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:41,990
was pursuing a UFO and that was another

1492
01:04:47,230 --> 01:04:44,290
story that you reported on in your book

1493
01:04:50,530 --> 01:04:47,240
where the plane basically what

1494
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:50,540
disintegrated yeah this was this was

1495
01:05:01,210 --> 01:04:55,210
really the second big famous UFO case of

1496
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:01,220
of 1947 1948 that really got everyone's

1497
01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:03,290
attention in America focused on UFOs

1498
01:05:10,270 --> 01:05:05,569
yeah it was an Air National Guard pilot

1499
01:05:12,430 --> 01:05:10,280
Thomas Mantell who was ferrying a plane

1500
01:05:14,950 --> 01:05:12,440
with with the three other pilots they

1501
01:05:17,530 --> 01:05:14,960
were ferrying planes from Georgia up to

1502
01:05:19,539 --> 01:05:17,540
Kentucky well along the way some people

1503
01:05:21,970 --> 01:05:19,549
in Northern Kentucky and southern Ohio

1504
01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:21,980
we're seeing this strange object object

1505
01:05:27,700 --> 01:05:24,799
in the sky sort of moving across the sky

1506
01:05:29,589 --> 01:05:27,710
it was it was it looked like a parachute

1507
01:05:32,020 --> 01:05:29,599
or an ice-cream cone that was glowing

1508
01:05:32,740 --> 01:05:32,030
and reflecting bright light and it

1509
01:05:35,890 --> 01:05:32,750
seemed to be

1510
01:05:37,630 --> 01:05:35,900
being fairly fast well the local the

1511
01:05:40,180 --> 01:05:37,640
local Air Force people divert this

1512
01:05:41,770 --> 01:05:40,190
international guide Guard pilot Thomas

1513
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:41,780
Mantell they divert him to go chase this

1514
01:05:43,780 --> 01:05:43,130
thing down and try to figure out what

1515
01:05:46,510 --> 01:05:43,790
the heck it is

1516
01:05:49,060 --> 01:05:46,520
well Mantell ends up going far too high

1517
01:05:50,170 --> 01:05:49,070
he has no oxygen in his plane he knew he

1518
01:05:52,780 --> 01:05:50,180
shouldn't have done it but he did it

1519
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:52,790
anyway because he really wanted to see

1520
01:05:58,120 --> 01:05:55,250
what this thing was so nobody knows

1521
01:06:00,370 --> 01:05:58,130
really what happened but most likely he

1522
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:00,380
either suffocated her passed out at

1523
01:06:04,420 --> 01:06:02,930
about 30,000 feet and then lost control

1524
01:06:07,180 --> 01:06:04,430
of his plane and of course the plane

1525
01:06:08,980 --> 01:06:07,190
came down in a crash dive and the plane

1526
01:06:11,170 --> 01:06:08,990
was obliterated and Mantell was killed

1527
01:06:12,970 --> 01:06:11,180
well at the time everybody was pretty

1528
01:06:15,370 --> 01:06:12,980
sure that this was a spaceship that he

1529
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:15,380
was chasing so you can imagine the chill

1530
01:06:20,620 --> 01:06:18,890
this put out on everyone in the everyone

1531
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:20,630
in the country they hear this story

1532
01:06:29,470 --> 01:06:25,810
about a you know a brave believable

1533
01:06:31,900 --> 01:06:29,480
pilot military pilot who chases this UFO

1534
01:06:33,910 --> 01:06:31,910
and ends up crashing and dying that was

1535
01:06:36,430 --> 01:06:33,920
terrifying to a whole lot of people and

1536
01:06:38,050 --> 01:06:36,440
you can't really blame them you can't

1537
01:06:39,370 --> 01:06:38,060
really blame I also I just heard

1538
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:39,380
something interesting last week in a

1539
01:06:43,930 --> 01:06:41,630
podcast I did with your own Clarke and

1540
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:43,940
Jerry was saying that there's new

1541
01:06:48,610 --> 01:06:46,250
evidence about that case that suggests

1542
01:06:52,020 --> 01:06:48,620
that the verdict that's been on the

1543
01:06:54,310 --> 01:06:52,030
books for years and years and years

1544
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:54,320
first of all they said it was Venus and

1545
01:06:58,060 --> 01:06:55,850
Hynek agreed with that that it was Venus

1546
01:07:01,660 --> 01:06:58,070
then they realized that it was most

1547
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:01,670
likely a top-secret skyhook balloon and

1548
01:07:04,690 --> 01:07:03,290
that's what's been on the books for many

1549
01:07:06,250 --> 01:07:04,700
many years been on Jerome Clarke

1550
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:06,260
mentioned last week that there's new and

1551
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:08,510
new information that says not so fast

1552
01:07:13,450 --> 01:07:11,330
with the skyhook explanation he's where

1553
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:13,460
he's writing an article about that I

1554
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:14,690
believe he said that's going to be in

1555
01:07:18,820 --> 01:07:16,730
the 40 in time soon so I'll be very in

1556
01:07:21,780 --> 01:07:18,830
trouble and read that new information

1557
01:07:25,090 --> 01:07:21,790
hiding yes absolutely

1558
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:25,100
absolutely and then of course Betty and

1559
01:07:31,570 --> 01:07:29,090
Barney Hill you write about well what a

1560
01:07:33,190 --> 01:07:31,580
great case that is that was another one

1561
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:33,200
of those cases that scared me to write

1562
01:07:37,270 --> 01:07:34,640
about because again I thought there's

1563
01:07:39,070 --> 01:07:37,280
been this this story has been told so

1564
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:39,080
many times how on earth do I tell it in

1565
01:07:44,650 --> 01:07:42,530
a new way so it was a real challenge but

1566
01:07:46,599 --> 01:07:44,660
I really enjoyed it and it's it's such a

1567
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:46,609
credible case Barney and Betty urge

1568
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:50,210
like two of the most normal believable

1569
01:07:55,329 --> 01:07:53,450
people you could imagine and they have

1570
01:07:57,640 --> 01:07:55,339
this experience that's just completely

1571
01:07:58,299 --> 01:07:57,650
outside the realm of normal human

1572
01:08:01,539 --> 01:07:58,309
experience

1573
01:08:03,009 --> 01:08:01,549
they don't I've seen this statement a

1574
01:08:07,180 --> 01:08:03,019
couple of times in some of hynix

1575
01:08:10,180 --> 01:08:07,190
writings and talks that it's difficult

1576
01:08:12,249 --> 01:08:10,190
for UFO witnesses to describe what they

1577
01:08:15,489 --> 01:08:12,259
experienced because they're trying to

1578
01:08:18,419 --> 01:08:15,499
describe something for which we haven't

1579
01:08:21,550 --> 01:08:18,429
invented words yet we haven't invented

1580
01:08:24,189 --> 01:08:21,560
the language to describe some of these

1581
01:08:25,419 --> 01:08:24,199
events and yeah and that and that was

1582
01:08:27,490 --> 01:08:25,429
kind of a case with Barney and Betty

1583
01:08:30,579 --> 01:08:27,500
Hill they had this extraordinary

1584
01:08:34,570 --> 01:08:30,589
experience taken aboard a strange craft

1585
01:08:36,789 --> 01:08:34,580
examined by these very strange men ended

1586
01:08:38,620 --> 01:08:36,799
up having two hours or so of lost time

1587
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:38,630
on their journey home from their

1588
01:08:44,289 --> 01:08:41,810
honeymoon and took them years and years

1589
01:08:46,329 --> 01:08:44,299
with the aid of a lot of hypnosis to

1590
01:08:47,979 --> 01:08:46,339
uncover these buried memories of what

1591
01:08:52,570 --> 01:08:47,989
had happened that night when they were

1592
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:52,580
abducted and Hynek you know Hynek didn't

1593
01:08:56,859 --> 01:08:54,290
get to meet them till several years

1594
01:08:59,740 --> 01:08:56,869
after their their abduction had taken

1595
01:09:01,329 --> 01:08:59,750
place but when he did meet them he was

1596
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:01,339
able to interview them when they were

1597
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:03,770
under hypnosis and just like with the

1598
01:09:10,269 --> 01:09:05,690
just like with the two guys Hickson and

1599
01:09:12,459 --> 01:09:10,279
Parker in Pascagoula whenever when they

1600
01:09:16,209 --> 01:09:12,469
got Barney Hill to the point in his

1601
01:09:18,669 --> 01:09:16,219
story where the aliens took hold of him

1602
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:18,679
and dragged they literally dragged him

1603
01:09:25,959 --> 01:09:23,449
onto the onto the UFO Barney Hill got so

1604
01:09:29,019 --> 01:09:25,969
terrified that he had to be taken out of

1605
01:09:31,990 --> 01:09:29,029
hypnosis so once again Hynek was very

1606
01:09:33,849 --> 01:09:32,000
very impressed that Barney had this

1607
01:09:36,099 --> 01:09:33,859
intense emotional reaction under

1608
01:09:37,379 --> 01:09:36,109
hypnosis it absolutely could not be

1609
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:37,389
faked

1610
01:09:45,129 --> 01:09:40,250
incredible story I did have the pleasure

1611
01:09:47,499 --> 01:09:45,139
of meeting Betty oh my gosh yeah I feel

1612
01:09:49,959 --> 01:09:47,509
so blessed I got a chance to meet her

1613
01:09:52,030 --> 01:09:49,969
unfortunately Barney had passed away by

1614
01:09:54,609 --> 01:09:52,040
the time I met Betty but I will never

1615
01:09:56,620 --> 01:09:54,619
forget you know betty was very short but

1616
01:10:00,280 --> 01:09:56,630
she was a pistol and I wouldn't want to

1617
01:10:03,010 --> 01:10:00,290
be in her wrong side but I

1618
01:10:05,350 --> 01:10:03,020
remember when she said if I had a frying

1619
01:10:08,980 --> 01:10:05,360
pan I would have taken them all out with

1620
01:10:11,890 --> 01:10:08,990
it and so because I'm not happy you know

1621
01:10:16,270 --> 01:10:11,900
Barney was one who was hysterical crying

1622
01:10:19,780 --> 01:10:16,280
in and just shaking but she kept her her

1623
01:10:24,310 --> 01:10:19,790
wits about her and as soon as it's an

1624
01:10:26,290 --> 01:10:24,320
amazing amazing lady but yeah and the

1625
01:10:29,230 --> 01:10:26,300
conversation that Betty had with the

1626
01:10:32,620 --> 01:10:29,240
leader of the aliens it's an amazing

1627
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:32,630
conversation well he he she asked him

1628
01:10:37,330 --> 01:10:34,370
where they're from and he shows her the

1629
01:10:39,070 --> 01:10:37,340
famous star chart the star map yeah

1630
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:39,080
and she says well which one of these are

1631
01:10:43,810 --> 01:10:41,570
you from and the leader just kind of

1632
01:10:45,610 --> 01:10:43,820
laughs and he says well you don't even

1633
01:10:47,410 --> 01:10:45,620
know which one of them you're from so

1634
01:10:50,020 --> 01:10:47,420
what good will it do if I tell you which

1635
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:50,030
one I'm from that's very hilarious

1636
01:10:55,060 --> 01:10:52,850
cowboy buddy but it rings true doesn't

1637
01:10:58,240 --> 01:10:55,070
it I mean that's right thank you

1638
01:11:00,250 --> 01:10:58,250
that's the way a conversation flows and

1639
01:11:02,380 --> 01:11:00,260
then the orbit and then the whole bit

1640
01:11:04,870 --> 01:11:02,390
with Betty asking the alien leader what

1641
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:04,880
can I take a souvenir with me because

1642
01:11:08,530 --> 01:11:06,410
nobody's going to believe this story

1643
01:11:10,150 --> 01:11:08,540
unless I have proof and he says Sara

1644
01:11:13,270 --> 01:11:10,160
what do you want and she says I'm coming

1645
01:11:15,250 --> 01:11:13,280
can I take this big book that looks like

1646
01:11:18,490 --> 01:11:15,260
it's written in Chinese characters and

1647
01:11:20,650 --> 01:11:18,500
he says sure and just as she's leaving

1648
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:20,660
the ship after the whole experience is

1649
01:11:25,930 --> 01:11:23,690
ending the leader has to take the book

1650
01:11:28,500 --> 01:11:25,940
back because he says well the other guys

1651
01:11:30,790 --> 01:11:28,510
are mad at me for giving you this book

1652
01:11:33,430 --> 01:11:30,800
they say I can't give you anything

1653
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:33,440
that'll help you remember this and Betty

1654
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:36,410
was furious cuz who would not even lie

1655
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:39,410
she had proof she had the proof in her

1656
01:11:43,630 --> 01:11:41,840
hands and she was just about to get out

1657
01:11:46,330 --> 01:11:43,640
of the saucer and back into her car and

1658
01:11:48,070 --> 01:11:46,340
she'd be home free and the alien leader

1659
01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:48,080
takes it back from her what a heartbreak

1660
01:11:52,330 --> 01:11:50,480
yeah yeah there are so many parts of

1661
01:11:55,420 --> 01:11:52,340
that story that's just are like they're

1662
01:11:56,980 --> 01:11:55,430
just so genuine and so human how can you

1663
01:11:59,800 --> 01:11:56,990
not believe that these people have this

1664
01:12:03,910 --> 01:11:59,810
experience exactly and she came back

1665
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:03,920
with the star chart that identify you

1666
01:12:08,260 --> 01:12:06,170
know that that star that nobody had

1667
01:12:09,910 --> 01:12:08,270
discovered until years later after she

1668
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:09,920
had come back with that star chart so

1669
01:12:14,020 --> 01:12:12,320
that was another piece of evidence but

1670
01:12:16,359 --> 01:12:14,030
you're right I mean I think

1671
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:16,369
some of what probably called to Hynek

1672
01:12:21,250 --> 01:12:18,650
was the heartfelt emotion that people

1673
01:12:23,859 --> 01:12:21,260
had around these cases of being abducted

1674
01:12:26,109 --> 01:12:23,869
or having these sightings or whatever

1675
01:12:29,709 --> 01:12:26,119
that it you just can't take that away

1676
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:29,719
from someone it's it was just so genuine

1677
01:12:34,629 --> 01:12:32,690
as you mentioned it it's an incredible

1678
01:12:36,310 --> 01:12:34,639
experience that they just you just can't

1679
01:12:39,970 --> 01:12:36,320
get away from the emotion of it

1680
01:12:41,830 --> 01:12:39,980
so Hynek recognize that and needs to be

1681
01:12:43,419 --> 01:12:41,840
commended that he didn't want to make

1682
01:12:45,399 --> 01:12:43,429
fun of people he didn't want to ridicule

1683
01:12:47,919 --> 01:12:45,409
anybody and he urged other people not to

1684
01:12:51,189 --> 01:12:47,929
do that as well yeah he respected the

1685
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:51,199
experience of the witnesses yes he did

1686
01:12:57,370 --> 01:12:54,170
he did if they were here today what

1687
01:13:04,649 --> 01:12:57,380
would you say to him oh my gosh

1688
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:04,659
I I would say I would say boy haha I

1689
01:13:09,100 --> 01:13:07,010
guess I would say tell me tell me about

1690
01:13:11,350 --> 01:13:09,110
your meeting with father Gill the case

1691
01:13:13,029 --> 01:13:11,360
we had in New Guinea cuz that's just

1692
01:13:15,580 --> 01:13:13,039
what I'm almost yes that's one of the

1693
01:13:17,290 --> 01:13:15,590
craziest most amazing stories and like I

1694
01:13:19,180 --> 01:13:17,300
said that was a story that really kind

1695
01:13:21,669 --> 01:13:19,190
of started to change hynek's mind about

1696
01:13:24,850 --> 01:13:21,679
about alien entities being present in

1697
01:13:27,669 --> 01:13:24,860
these experiences now with a New Guinea

1698
01:13:29,649 --> 01:13:27,679
story that had more than one event

1699
01:13:32,709 --> 01:13:29,659
attached to it right they had multiple

1700
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:32,719
sightings multi variances that yeah it

1701
01:13:37,029 --> 01:13:34,489
took place over three consecutive nights

1702
01:13:45,069 --> 01:13:37,039
so Papua New Guinea is a very very

1703
01:13:49,390 --> 01:13:45,079
remote area in Southeast Asia and this

1704
01:13:51,490 --> 01:13:49,400
Anglican Minister William Gill one night

1705
01:13:53,890 --> 01:13:51,500
he and some of the locals

1706
01:13:56,620 --> 01:13:53,900
spotted these strange craft in the sky

1707
01:13:59,229 --> 01:13:56,630
just sort of hovering off the beach and

1708
01:14:01,060 --> 01:13:59,239
they were there were three or four small

1709
01:14:03,490 --> 01:14:01,070
objects but in the centre there was one

1710
01:14:05,890 --> 01:14:03,500
large object a large saucer shaped

1711
01:14:08,140 --> 01:14:05,900
object to hit four legs on the bottom a

1712
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:08,150
beam of blue light was shooting out from

1713
01:14:12,910 --> 01:14:11,090
the top of it and there was what sort of

1714
01:14:14,939 --> 01:14:12,920
looked like an observation platform on

1715
01:14:17,919 --> 01:14:14,949
the top and there were three or four

1716
01:14:19,330 --> 01:14:17,929
entities present on this observation

1717
01:14:20,890 --> 01:14:19,340
deck and they seemed to be working on

1718
01:14:24,980 --> 01:14:20,900
something nobody nobody on the ground

1719
01:14:27,980 --> 01:14:26,540
but so that was what they saw the first

1720
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:27,990
night the second night same thing

1721
01:14:32,780 --> 01:14:29,690
happened only the second night

1722
01:14:34,550 --> 01:14:32,790
Fothergill and and the people from the

1723
01:14:36,500 --> 01:14:34,560
local village were a little more brave

1724
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:36,510
the first night they were just too

1725
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:37,890
confused to really know what to do about

1726
01:14:41,630 --> 01:14:39,750
it they gil thought maybe it's the

1727
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:41,640
Americans testing some new weapon he

1728
01:14:46,010 --> 01:14:43,650
didn't know second night there really a

1729
01:14:48,410 --> 01:14:46,020
little more bold so the people on the

1730
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:48,420
beach start waving to these entities up

1731
01:14:55,610 --> 01:14:51,360
on top of this saucer and the entities

1732
01:14:57,500 --> 01:14:55,620
wave back other people on the beach wave

1733
01:15:01,760 --> 01:14:57,510
with both hands and the entities wave

1734
01:15:03,710 --> 01:15:01,770
back with both hands and then someone on

1735
01:15:06,980 --> 01:15:03,720
the beach flashes a flashlight at this

1736
01:15:08,510 --> 01:15:06,990
at this saucer and it starts sort of

1737
01:15:11,030 --> 01:15:08,520
swaying back and forth like a pendulum

1738
01:15:13,730 --> 01:15:11,040
and moving towards them on the beach and

1739
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:13,740
and I talked to Bill Chalker who knew

1740
01:15:16,970 --> 01:15:15,210
father Gill and I said so were they

1741
01:15:18,830 --> 01:15:16,980
terrified when this thing started moving

1742
01:15:21,470 --> 01:15:18,840
towards them and he said no no they were

1743
01:15:23,090 --> 01:15:21,480
excited because they had been you know

1744
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:23,100
they they were dealing with the mystery

1745
01:15:26,810 --> 01:15:24,570
and they thought ah last will have the

1746
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:26,820
mystery solved they'll come out in the

1747
01:15:29,570 --> 01:15:28,290
land and then we'll find out who they

1748
01:15:31,550 --> 01:15:29,580
are and they'll tell us what they're

1749
01:15:34,820 --> 01:15:31,560
doing up there and the mystery will be

1750
01:15:36,170 --> 01:15:34,830
solved so they were actually excited

1751
01:15:37,820 --> 01:15:36,180
when it moved towards them but then it

1752
01:15:40,270 --> 01:15:37,830
stopped and never moved any closer and

1753
01:15:43,010 --> 01:15:40,280
then they were kind of pissed because

1754
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:43,020
wait a minute wait a minute you're

1755
01:15:47,780 --> 01:15:44,730
supposed to land and tell us who you are

1756
01:15:50,390 --> 01:15:47,790
and you're not doing that so and then

1757
01:15:51,980 --> 01:15:50,400
the third night the third night several

1758
01:15:53,090 --> 01:15:51,990
of the smaller objects appeared again

1759
01:15:55,580 --> 01:15:53,100
but the third night there was no

1760
01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:55,590
interaction with the beings so whatever

1761
01:15:59,150 --> 01:15:57,090
whatever they were up to they finished

1762
01:16:02,240 --> 01:15:59,160
it on the second night but it's a great

1763
01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:02,250
great story and as I said Hynek didn't

1764
01:16:07,340 --> 01:16:03,600
get a chance to meet with father Gill

1765
01:16:09,860 --> 01:16:07,350
until 19 years after it happened he

1766
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:09,870
interviewed father Gill he interviewed

1767
01:16:15,770 --> 01:16:11,610
some of the villagers and he came away

1768
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:15,780
feeling like okay I have to readjust my

1769
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:17,970
thinking because I think something very

1770
01:16:23,990 --> 01:16:20,610
real happened here that all these people

1771
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:24,000
agree on so yeah major major milestone

1772
01:16:28,940 --> 01:16:26,970
in hynek's thinking that is and also

1773
01:16:31,100 --> 01:16:28,950
it's important for people to understand

1774
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:31,110
how remote New Guinea is and it's not

1775
01:16:35,279 --> 01:16:32,370
like these people are sitting around

1776
01:16:38,580 --> 01:16:35,289
watching television and

1777
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:38,590
or else they weren't watching your Star

1778
01:16:43,529 --> 01:16:41,170
Trek episode so you know they didn't

1779
01:16:46,049 --> 01:16:43,539
they didn't have the concept that we in

1780
01:16:48,330 --> 01:16:46,059
America have so it's even more important

1781
01:16:51,299 --> 01:16:48,340
what they saw and more credible in my

1782
01:16:53,779 --> 01:16:51,309
mind because they're indigenous people

1783
01:16:57,149 --> 01:16:53,789
that that don't have all of the media

1784
01:16:59,220 --> 01:16:57,159
surrounding this so that's a really good

1785
01:17:03,089 --> 01:16:59,230
morally there frame of reference is so

1786
01:17:04,740 --> 01:17:03,099
different from from ours and yet it's

1787
01:17:08,279 --> 01:17:04,750
clear that they witnessed the same thing

1788
01:17:10,830 --> 01:17:08,289
yes they did they did well mark thank

1789
01:17:13,229 --> 01:17:10,840
you so much for joining us this evening

1790
01:17:14,069 --> 01:17:13,239
on Supernatural girls radio it has been

1791
01:17:16,709 --> 01:17:14,079
a blast

1792
01:17:19,709 --> 01:17:16,719
again you've written it from oh good

1793
01:17:21,319 --> 01:17:19,719
well the good guys out there in the

1794
01:17:23,310 --> 01:17:21,329
audience you got to buy the book

1795
01:17:25,799 --> 01:17:23,320
hopefully they're going to turn this

1796
01:17:27,839 --> 01:17:25,809
into any - a television series or a

1797
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:27,849
movie that's right we've got it both of

1798
01:17:32,459 --> 01:17:30,010
us have copies right here the Close

1799
01:17:34,890 --> 01:17:32,469
Encounters man how one fan made the

1800
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:34,900
world believe in UFOs I think this would

1801
01:17:38,419 --> 01:17:36,610
be a great series and you could write

1802
01:17:40,709 --> 01:17:38,429
the scripts for it you're also or

1803
01:17:43,529 --> 01:17:40,719
absolutely I thought let's keep thinking

1804
01:17:48,299 --> 01:17:43,539
with my ball right in the works isn't it

1805
01:17:50,189 --> 01:17:48,309
I vote is going that way alright well

1806
01:17:53,729 --> 01:17:50,199
thanks again and next thing everybody

1807
01:17:56,729 --> 01:17:53,739
was talking to people that found aliens

1808
01:17:59,669 --> 01:17:56,739
through bent light they're going to show

1809
01:18:01,470 --> 01:17:59,679
you how you too can see aliens and

1810
01:18:03,899 --> 01:18:01,480
they're watching us we're going to find

1811
01:18:06,270 --> 01:18:03,909
out all about it next week everybody

1812
01:18:11,490 --> 01:18:06,280
until then we'll see you on the blue